Abbas to Olmert: West Bank must be included in cease-fire

"I am sure that some of these ashes of the M.E you are taking about will come from Israel"Peter Mall. You are either missing the point or ignoring the point.Ashes are the result of fire. Israel has no fire that can leave ashes. On the other hand the ME is rageing with fire in all the Arab Countries. Sooner or later those "Arab Fires" will consume themselves and turn to ashes . It is alreay you turned to ashes in Iraq, Lebanon and Sudan etc.. Arabs are very famous for 'self destruction'.. Fire is self destruction.. Your post is an ultimate sign of Arabs ignoring the truth at their own peril.. You better ask them to wake up than to criticise what is the truth;before it will be too late..

Dear Cipora.There is a lot of truth in your posting.But, not all that is lawful is right. Plato's Republic has the most influence on me. It is the most logical study. Acording to Plato;the causes of action as responsible as the action itself. Example made by Plato,briefly: The one who gives a mad man a knief that the mad man used it to kill himself , is guilty of murder. 'Indoctrination' that can results in Genocide is also Genocide itself. My main point is those Arab Leaders in the past and the present who caused the Palestinians and the Israeli,all these 60 years and more; this bloody conflict should be treated instigaters of Genocide and should not escape justice and let the Palestinians &the Israeli pay the price for those Arab Leaders' crimes.While on the subject of civil liberty; many countries are criminalising drugs,smoking etc for the benefit of public health.Do you call that unlawful intrusion on Civil Liberty ? Do you call Mosses Laws intrusion ?

"Ashes from Israel" Peter Mall. Ashes come from their own fire Peter. Israel is never on fire. Most of the Arab countries are on fire. Some of those countries are almost already cunsumed into ashes, like Iraq, Lebanon, Sudan etc.. At the end of the day it is only Arab fire all over the ME. No one can stop Arab Countries from self destruction, and ash is the result of self destruction. May be you know what I mean now, Peter Mall. from self destruction.

I am sure that some of these ashes of the present ME you are talking about will come from Israel.

Where TonyL has this to say: "it is you Sir who fails to understand that the customary international humanitarian laws only exist in the heads of those blindly & scrupulously marching to its drum." You obviously do not understand what is meant by "customary international humanitarian law". Regardless, you think anyone can just disregard them with a titter and a baring of buttocks to the world. Very good, TonyL. Until you start loosing. Then it is the Nuremberg Trials, or the rather grizzly end of Slobodan Milosevic or Saddam Hussein. Coz that's the funny thing about people who defy customary int'l humanitarian law - they think they'll ALWAYS be beyond the reach of the law. And here is another funny thing; there are entire nations that think like you - it's just a lawless jungle, and We Can Do What We Like. And those regimes are ALWAYS astonished when their nation gets chewed up and spat out, coz that was meant to happen to The Other Side. It doesn't always, TonyL.

Ivo, sorry, but I am afraid, when it comes to Israels (military) strength we are simply disagreeing. The Israel of today is a very strong power and from my point of view could definitely afford it to be a bit more coura- geous, no foolish risks, but well calculated ones. By the way, I think it's a good thing that Israel is so strong, that's one of the lessons the Jewish people have learnt from the past that I totally can understand. The challenge is only how to transform this strength into positive energy.... And with regard to the Arab "mainstream" opinion: I travelled several times to Egypt and Marocco in the 90's and already by then the vast majority of ordinary citizens that I spoke to, had no problem at all with the existence of Israel. But of course an Israel within the borders of 67 (more or less) and not the Israel of today.

Cipora, My daddy told me.... And I was also working for a Swiss newspaper, which allowed me to study their archives quite extensively, which together with my fathers memories left me in no doubt what the mood in Switzerland was by then....

"AT OSLO THE ARABS ACCEPTED ISRAELS DE FACTO AND DE JURE SOVEREIGNITY OVER ITS LANDS." The arabs. The arabs. The arabs, says Paul. They all look the same to you, don't they? Olso was purely a bilateral agreement between the PLO and the State of Israel. No other "the arabs" involved Paul, and that agreement did not bind any non-Palestinian arab state. At Olso the PLO recognized the existance of the State of Israel within the pre-1967 borders i.e. they recognized Israeli sovereignty over everything within the GL, and not an inch beyond. Which, funny enough, is exactly the Saudi Plan position that "the arabs" have just put forward. So why doesn't Israel accept it, Paul, and go into final status talks? To paraphrase Abba Eban "Israel never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity". And why? Well, to quote Abba Eban again: "We changed our mind".

Because I notice that you didn't answer it. Was Denmark under German military occupation in 1940, Jeff, or was she not????? The Germans most assuredly did NOT take over any of the "functions of government" in that country. But Germany did *seem* to move her army onto Danish sovereign territory in such a, well, invasion-like way..... And did seem to leave her army plonked on top of Denmark is a, well, occupation-like way.... It is an important question, since Article 2 of the 4th Geneva Convention had to include TWO triggers so that this question can be adequately covered. Quite important, and yet you appear to be so strangely - so atypically - reticent about voicing an opinion...... How Very Odd.

Hi Maria, Remember "My sheep hears my voice".Some will never understand no matter how hard you try to make them understand. Anyway keep blogging ,you are doing a good job.Remember you can take side but don't judge the pals,that's not our nature!!!!

The christians believe the teaching of Jesus has superceded the teaching of Moses. Read Duetronomy of the old testament to understand the the teaching of Moses. Read: Gospel of Matthew,Mark, John and Luke (red bold letters,that's when Jesus speaks) and the epistle of Paul to the early churches of Roman,Corinthian,Galatian, Ephesian,Phillipians,Colossian,Thessolonian. Then Ballistic,you will know the difference between the teaching of Moses and Jesus. Still interested to know the difference!!!!! Good Day to you!!!Ballistics

IN THE SIMPLE MATTER OF SOVEREIGNITY AT OSLO THE ARABS ACCEPTED ISRAELS DE FACTO AND DE JURE SOVEREIGNITY OVER ITS LANDS. THIS IS ONE OF THE HAMAS CARPS THAT THEY DONT WANT TO ACCEPT! GOING DOWN THE STUPID ROAD THE "PALESTINE" UNITY GOVERNMENT ALSO ACCEPTS ISRAELS SOVEREIGHNITY IN CALLING FOR FINAL STATUS TALKS ! YOUR ARGUMENTS DONT RUN FOR A SECOND !!

it's "is some folks accept responsibility for wrongdoing and others DENY it"... lol..sorry; couldn't help myself!

Abu,you sound like a reasonable guy and I hope there are more like you in Israel/Palestine then there may be hope for peace if more of you speak out against extremism on both sides. Many a time we find that the moderate muslims/arabs refused to speak up against islamic extremism,maybe because of fear. But remember if the majority moderates keep quiet the world will take the view of the islamic extremists as the view of your religion. By the way, I do not support war and remember 9/11. We have gone through pain and many have lost their love ones then. So don't think for a moment I enjoy the killing of human life!!! Good day to you!!!

Jeff: "Are you trying to imply that the Hamas dominated PA is actually a puppet government of Israel?" No, but I suspect that the entire point behind Israel agreeing to the creation of the PA at Olso was to turn FATAH from a resistance movement into a group of collaborators. Which didn't work, because Arafat was controlled by the mob rather than the other way around. Regardless, you continue to make a fundamental error; that the occupier MUST take over the "functions of government". This is simply untrue; if an army is in a position to exercise authority over those who carry out the "functions of government" then it is an army of occupation, and the land and the people on that land are under occupation. Article 42, Hague Conventions, 1907. If they are able to usurp at any time of their choosing any "function of government" - regardless of wether or not they ever actually do so - then they are an Occupying Power. That makes the IDF in the WB an occupying power.

Jeff: "The border can only be decided by a bilateral agreement between the belligerent parties" Well, Duh!! ANY nation can cede ANY of its sovereign territory to ANYONE, and that must entail a change in borders. Ceding land? Strictly a political decision. Where Intl Law matters is when a nation tries to *claim* land by saying I TOOK IT FAIR AND SQUARE AND NOW ITS MINE. That is Israel's ambit claim, thanks to all those settlements, and that is why Israel refuses to recognize any borders at all. That is also why you fail to see the implications of Ben Sourik. Which is: All the WB is under occupation i.e. it was all seized via war. So Israel can't legally annex any of it, therefore it can't UNILATERALLY move the border east of the GL. Which was exactly what Olmert was planning to do once the wall was finished. The POLICITAL effect? If Israel wants to keep those settlements then it has to BRIBE the Pals into agreeing, not IGNORE them by putting up a wall.

Howdy Johnboy; Yes, occupations can be complicated like Denmark, Norway, Vichy France, and French Indochina during WW II. However, in each of those cases, the occupying power was in absolute control of the government from A to Z in spite of the fact that the local bureaucracy was allowed to keep their posts. What does that have to do with the PA? Are you trying to imply that the Hamas dominated PA is actually a puppet government of Israel? Give me a break.

i just wanted to address it if by chance it WAS directed at me... by the way...i'd meant to include this before; but i forgot... in reference to what you said about people hating the jews because they killed Jesus. i haven't seen that said in these talkbacks...but i have heard of it before... and all i gotta say is that anyone who feels that way, or even believes that the jews killed Jesus, is ignorant. all who played a part in His death were meant to do so... nor did His desciple judas betray Him... despite what many might think.

Jeff: "the fact remains that an occupation ends when the occupying power no longer exercices the functions of government in the area in question." Wrong, Jeff. The Hague Conventions Article 42 defines occupation: "Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army" "The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised" It talks about "authority", not the "exercise of the function of govt". That authority does not have to be exercised - it is enough that it "can be exercised" Regardless, authority can be exercised THRU existing civilian institutions; indeed under Intl Humanitarian Law the OP must do so if it is practicable. But if a "function of govt" can be taken over at any time then that army is an Occupying Power. So the WB is under occupation, because the IDF can choose to seal off ANY part of the WB from PA control whenever it wants. It can, and it does. Often.

Howdy Johnboy; The fact remains that no court or third party can determine where the border is. It is simply beyond their authority to do so. The border can only be decided by a bilateral agreement between the belligerent parties which is a matter for the executive and legislative branches of the respective governments and not the judicial branches. Hence, I still fail to see how the Ben Sourik case can be expanded out to apply to all of the West Bank on the Palestinian side of the Green Line (minus East Jerusalem) when the border has not been determined yet.

await the replies. Great post. Regards. Ballistic.

is some folks accept responsibility for wrongdoing and others don't. Do you agree? Regards.

have you not experienced this---it feels like the world is against you....where did the twelve disciples of Jesus go when he was taken---one, betrayed Him;one,denied Him---matthew 26:31 then saith Jesus unto them,all ye shall offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.............then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.................

all of us.......we're all guilty,aren't we?

you wrote:all of Jesus' friends and associates were called sinners(I'm one of them)....Jesus said in His Word......for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to REPENTANCE.if you don't admit that you're a sinner,then you're righteous.

I have ignored his comment on Tibet till now because, frankly, it was too foolish for words. Jeff said: "The Chinese consider Tibet to be a rebel province of China and not a sovereign state under occupation." To argue otherwise requires that Jeff prove that Tibet ever was a "sovereign state". He can't. Care to point out any nation that ever recognized a sovereign State of Tibet? Care to point out the empty chair in the UN with the name "Tibet" stencilled out? Even the British - who orchestrated the breakaway of Tibet - did not go that far, because all it wanted was a buffer between India and China. Not a precedent. Tibet was always a sovereign part of China, and for a period China lost central authority over it i.e. it WAS a rebel province. As soon as a strong central government (the communists) could they re-established control. They didn't conquer Tibet, because it was already theirs.

that out plainly and promptly! Regards. Keep blogging. Ballistic.

You always have an excuse for Israeli policy and actions so in that regard I wish for Israelis exactly what they wished for my father's family.We lost avery large farm in what is now nothern Israel to the Israelis,we lost lives and the lives of the farm workers ,their villages and the cemeteries of each were bulldozed by the brave Israelis.Iwishaand hope for exactly the same for the thieves of Israel.

Howdy Kath'; Don't worry, I have no intention of letting the terrorist-loving bastards wear me down. Happy Easter and Passover to you and yours.

Howdy Johnboy; You can squirm and scream all you like, but the fact remains that an occupation ends when the occupying power no longer exercices the functions of government in the area in question. That's it; game over. You can't make the former occupying power responsible for the welfare of the civilian population when the functions of government are not in its hands. That would defy logic, law, and common sense. Are you trying to tell me that the PA doesn't exist? That they don't exercise the functions of government in the Gaza Strip and in Areas A & B in the West Bank? Well, of course, the occupying power is not obliged to exercise the functions of government, but then the area in question is not occupied is it? I have never encountered an example in which the conquering power fails to exercise the functions of government on the conquered at least for awhile. Article 6 is clear to me and to anyone with a brain and if you disagree, then go to war with Israel.

Besides the King David hotel there were a great many acts of Israeli terrorism.Shamir and his gang murdered the U.N. representative count Bernadotte,the slaughter of Deir Yassin,and the list goes on and on.

Jeff: "An occupation ends when the occupying power no longer execises the functions of government in the area in question." Consider Denmark, 1940. Germans invaded, and the Danish government decided not to resist. All civilian institutions continued. The Danish government remained; the Germans did not seek their removal at all, keeping them there as the Danish "protectorate" government. The Germans only took over "the functions of government" in 1943, when the resistence movement got out of hand. So, Jeff, my question to you: was Denmark under belligerent occupation in 1940, or was it not? According to you it was not. According to every other person on this planet it was. The issue is not wether the OP carries out the "functions of government", but wether the OP is in a position to usurp those "government functions" at will, and to do so at the point of a gun. If it can, then it is an occupying power, and the land and the people are under occupation.

Hannah talks about brainwashed zionists and I guess that is a prime example of one. I do believe she is intellectually challenged and with a dripping hate which I find surprising given that she is the one that arrived come lately with her toothbrush from halfway across the world. I told her earlier on she has moxie, yup she does. I am so glad you posted her pointing out her shortcomings. High regards. Ballistic.

but you seem obsessed with me and Labhras and NO other poster. So, save it on my behalf, okay? Okay. Regards.

abouot historical Israel? Is that a euphemism for stealing more land? Which DNA family of yours resided there? Well, there appears to be a tad of a disagreement about what you so blithely state as fact, yup, there is. And Israel will be fortunate if she can find here place amongst the mess that exists. You are dreaming if you think there is gonna be a historical Israel; it is nonsense from the USA! Regards.

The bloggers that are proPalestinian are pretty darn good,including yourself.They are intrepid characters,exceedingly bright, well informed,well prepared.The least we can do for the Palestinians. Before I turn in for the evening here's a thought from Gandhi which you probably already know,but it is worth repeating: "There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible,but in the end they fall,remember that . . .always." I guess we all have to work to make that happen. May the divine powers go with you. Peace

lol...i'm not calling you names, maria... i'm just telling you what i think... and the impression you give me as well others here... and the poster who called you uneducated had good reason, too... it has to do with that narrow mindedness i've mentioned... and you showed it again in your response to him...which is what prompted my post to you. and what he said had nothing to do your christianity; since he is one himself...nor is it your worldly wisdom he questions; it's your PREJUDICE! go back and read again those ten commandments you just cited... those of the "new testament" you said... and quote Jesus all you want... but UNDERSTAND the intent of His teachings; don't just mindlessly quote them... and forget thee NOT, maria... ALL of Jesus's friends and associates were so-called "sinners". He had no use for the selfrighteous; none whatsoever.

Who called you Miss Muffet and Lady Jane? Your post is not addressed. Calm down! BTW; I asked you who told you Jews killed Jesus? I do not believe they did. Why do you say they did? Regards.

Hi Jeff, You are right. The chances that the outside world will confront China over its conquest and occupation of Tibet are slim to none. So the people of Tibet are alone to suffer under the heel of Communist China. The Tibetins best hope is for Communism in China to fall and more moderate leadership to takeover. Peace.

The decade after the Six Day War was an odd one. Israel crushed - barely - the last Arab attempt to exterminate it. Or at the very least an attempt by Egypt and Syria to free land occupied during the Six Day War. The PLO turned on Jordan and Israel saved the King of Jordan. The West Bank was pretty peaceful and Israelis and tourists could move around the West Bank with little concern. Then the government of Israel changed to a radical right-wing government. That government was determined to effect a "Greater Israel" composed of not only the West Bank, but parts of Syria and Lebanon. That government could not affront the US by being obvious and honest, so it set about a process of dispossessing the Palestinians and making their lives miserable in hope that they would leave. This led to increasing resistance and hostility, which in turn led to increased repression and more settlements. This whole program has failed. What now?

I'm not the one ignoring East Jerusalem; the IHCJ is, because the IHCJ accepts that Israel annexed it in 1967. "The area where the IHCJ`s ruling is applicable is not clear at all; it`s just as vague as UNSCR 242." Absolute rubbish, Jeff. The IHCJ ruling is clear; ALL of the West Bank is occupied territory. The IHCJ says that Israel CAN put up a wall inside occupied territory to protect Israeli civilians i.e. that is the ONLY reason why the wall can be built, and so it is the ONLY criteria that can be used to determine its path. The IHCJ ruled that if the wall is routed so as to assist Israel in future plans to annex part of the WB then the route is illegal. Which is exactly what it ruled in Ben Sourik, and why it ordered the wall moved. Same with all the other cases you named; the IHCJ accepted the argument that the only reason the wall surrounds THOSE settlements is for their protection - not their future annexation - and so the wall could be routed around them.

Dino, (I hope yu don't mind me jumping in) - on the changes among the Swiss since -73, the answer may be simple: a shift of several generations. Forget about the genes, but many of those Swiss today in their 20s, 30s & 40s couldn't have had much of a clue back in -73. They've been fed w/different kind of info/misinfo much later than that. In #387 you're asserting wild things & oversimplifying the problem. 1."Clearly changed" & "No doubt the mainstream Arab world willing to accept Israel"???!!! Dino, where are you getting this assurance from? 2.Again, Israel creates & is responsible for the Pal. scene, & certain Israeli moves will solve the problem w/the radicals. I'm not saying there's absolutely nothing in this. But study the last 15 years (& you're wrong in your "again & again israel did the opposite"). The helpful moves were rewarded w/more terror. From the first moves of Oslo to the Gaza pullout - !!! Israel can't do the everything possible for the moderates.

"HE DIED ALONE FOR YOU AND ME" there were two others with him... your quote did not say: "He alone died for and me"... to which i would not have responded...

Not only are you a fool but a distorter of the truth. I said "If the arabs keep on attacking then possibly we will get more land". I did not say we are waging war to gain more territory. You are entitled to your racist opinion but you are not intitled to state false facts. Your hatred blinds you and makes your arguments irrelevent. WHY NO ANSWER ABOUT THE MURDERING OF CHRISTIANS IN ARAB/MUSLIM COUNTRIES? IS IT O.K. WITH YOU TO ALLOW SUCH KILLINGS BECAUSE MUSLIMS ARE DOING IT? YOU ARE A JOKE.....

Jeff, you believe that Art 6 explains when occupation ends, and you are simply wrong. The 4th GC leaves that up to Other People to decide. Articles 2 and 6 are book-ends, describing when the 4th GC are triggered and when and under what circumstances it lapses. Article 2 has two (mutually-exclusive) triggers: 1) When two armies engage in "armed conflict" OR 2) When one army invades sovereign territory and the "sovereign" decides not to resist Article 6 describes what happens after "armed conflict" ends 1) All the articles immediately lapse in your own sovereign territory 2) All the articles regarding WAR lapse a year later in occupied territory 3) All the articles regarding occupation continue into infinity in occupied territory The point that Tosefta keeps making is that the Occupying Power is never OBLIGED to replace the civilian "functions of government", but if it DOES decide to then it does NOT have limitless or capricious authority; Article 6 says so.

now i'm anxiously waiting for elias to unleash upon you!!! i see that you're a fan... of israeli propaganda news! cool! oh...and by the way...you really do have a screwed up perspective... racist to the core aren't you? your mind would gag a rat; if only the rat knew... i can't see any reason in the world why ballistic would want to message you... lol...except for one thing... which is the same reason i do... to make you broil in your hatred until you simple disappear... so stick around babe! yours is just the type of hate i love to sear... with love and toodle-do's and all that... oh and kisses, too... salud!

I don't hate you,by the way even though you said bad things about my country and my people. "happy ressurection day"

lady jane and labhras called me,"little miss muffet".....don't you worry about it.sticks and stones can break my bones,but names can never hurt me---.................................. this is what Jesus said in His Word: john 15:18 if the WORLD hate you, ye know that IT hated me before IT hated you.....one poster called me the most uneducated person---but anyway,how did he know?some people think that christians are brainwashed and don't know anything........they care more about their worldly wisdom.....what it shall profit a man if he gains the whole world, but lose his soul.

Samaria and Judea belong to Israel as part of its biblical and historic territories since 4000 years. It is none of the business of Abbas and the dark forces to interfere in Israel's internal affairs.

Saint Paul mentioned "Christians" in the Bible. in acts 11:26 and when he had found him,he brought him unto antioch. and it came to pass,that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people, and disciples were called CHRISTIANS first in antioch.did you know the two great commandments in the new testament:the first four of the ten commandments-1.thou shalt love the Lord thy God......the last six-2.thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Ivo I did not mean it as an accusation,but! As I said above why go to Egypt?Knowing the consequences visiting the place.Unless of course you had to attend the place for commercial purposes? And who would want to to do business with such backward people anyway.Sorry if I sound accusatory,but it is how I feel. We all know the dangers when visiting that country,and I feel particularely annoyed to hear when thousands of Israelis choose to spend their vacation there and put their life in danger.Foolish they seem to be,and never learn. I would call it a "Voyage of Torture" It takes all sorts I suppose.I am neither interestd in their country,nor would any of my family in Israel dream of attempting to embark on such venture. Bon Chance

Howdy Johnboy; An occupation ends when the occupying power no longer execises the functions of government in the area in question. End of story, game over. And now you're trying to haul up a bunch of red herrings like "civil administration" and "Jordanian law". What does that have to do with the termination of an occupation as defined in Art. 6 of the Fourth Geneva Convention? Actually, there is no definition of an occupation in international law, but I like yours: "an occupation can only occur if the military dismantles ALL the civil authority and takes over ALL the duties of government." Except that I would add that the territory in question must have been all or part of a sovereign country (rebel or disputed provinces don't count).

Did you not say that you were born in 1968? Would that not mean that in 1973 you were five years old? Maybe you were a very precocious five year old. Anyway, this is not about the Swiss. Of that, I am certain.

Disarm Palestinians but continue to build up the IOF one of the most powerful in the world.Sounds fair to a total lunatic.Oh btw destroy Iran's neuclear but keep Occuppier Israels nucs.Right on !!!!

from a terrible place calls HELL.

...You fail to understand that under customary international humanitarian law the OP MUST allow the existing civil administatation to continue as much as is practicable... If I understood you correctly, the OP is overseeing the civil admin functions. Cute, but only half the problem. The other half is unfortunately, it is you Sir who fails to understand that the customary international humanitarian laws only exist in the heads of those blindly & scrupulously marching to its drum. Thus simply becoming daily nuisances, subjects of amusement, pity & laughter `targets` for the logical, realistic minds, but nothing more. There are customary, many internationally renowned, society driven humanitarian behavior among & within communities around the world, but that is the entirely different matter.

We have asked many,many times,Which Israel is to be recognized?If definite borders aren't determined Israel could just keep confiscating more and more land.There must be a defined Israel to recognize!

Great posts,thank you ,keep them comming!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for your comment. Of course I understood Tosefta was only making a link to expulsion in Exodus & not genocide, holding that it was more probable that expulsion had happened in Kaanan rather than genocide. But even that, to link todays' (possible) events to the biblical account is highly problematic & I'm questioning his motives for that. See my comment to Cipora at #369. I tried honestly to reply a former post of yours, maybe you missed my #326 & #334? Or you would rather not go on w/the issue? I see you're repeating those points in question to other posters. I actually tried to answer those. I only want to add that you're making too much of Israel's strength & seemingly advantageous position. This may be the other way round. Israel is in an extremely precarious position, where it cannot allow itself to commit too many mistakes. Israelis are acutely aware of this.

but i got news for you, despite what YOU and most "born again's" believe; you hold no monopoly of Christ or God, and you Do'nt have to be "born again" to be a true christian. as a matter of fact; i've come to find in my personal experiences that the majority of the born again's i've met are the least "Christ-like" people i've ever known. and you dear lady, are a shining example of exactly what i'm talking about. and just like them; you would not know Jesus if he walked among us today. worst yet you would condemn Him and call Him a sinner; because He would not, nor did he then, share your ignorant and narrow minded views. living with your nose buried in the bible and quoting it like a mindless parrot is NOT being a christian. Jesus didn't do that nor did He profess that anyone should. what He asked is that we follow in His footsteps, maria; something which you clearly DON'T. and judging from the comments of yours i've read; you're in NO position to question anyone's christianity.

Howdy Johnboy; I don't see anything in the ruling by the IHCJ that could possibly be interpreted as or expanded out to include all territory on the Palestinian side of the Green Line. You conveniently ignore East Jerusalem which was on the "wrong" side of the Green Line between 1948 and 1967. The applicability of the ruling to all territory east of the Green Line is your own interpretation and subsequent rulings by the IHCJ concerning the path of the security barrier around the Israeli settlements of Ariel, Maale Adumim, and Gush Etzion are evidence of that. The area where the IHCJ's ruling is applicable is not clear at all; it's just as vague as UNSCR 242.

Whats interesting, thinks that easely been writen abou ballistic, he is writing abown other people. meaning of it - he never think of himself, what he is doing hear, his ANGER that evrebody can see.

Cipora, The problem has long been that the Arab world was not willing to accept the existence of Israel. That has clearly changed over the past decade, there is no doubt that the "mainstream" Arab world would be willing to live alongside with Israel today. The problem is the existence of a vocal, extremist minority. Yes, I believe it is only a minority, but it's a quite strong one. And there we come to the problem with Israel. After all those years, the Israeli leadership still doesn't seem to be able to understand that in order to "neutralize" the extremist minority, Israel should do everything possible to strengthen the moderate forces on the other side. Unfortunately over the past years, Israel has done exactly the opposite of that, again and again (remember Sharon declaring Abbas as "irrelevant"). And that's exactly the kind of stuff which inspires all kind of conspiracy theories, because nobody believes that Israelis are not smart enough to "get" it....

Hello Ronnie I did enjoy that small banter toward our Tosefta.Good on YA BABY. Hag Sameach..................

Dear Jeff I came late,and all I see has been you getting clobbered by:Tosefta,nasty Lab-Ass,Johnboy which are all rather inconsequential. Don't give up and keep with your logical points which are in essense true and valid. PUT BRIEFLY "ILLEGITIMI NON CARBORANDUM" Best of luck and blessings. p/s They are also doing it to poor Maria who's heart is in the right place.

Cipora, By the way, if the Swiss poll numbers have nothing to do with Israels current policies, then you would have to explain me, why in 1973 the vast majority of Swiss were watching Television and crossing thereby their fingers IN SUPPORT of Israel. Do you really think the genes of "mainstream" Swiss have changed over the past 30 years...?? Strange, strange, strange.... Very strange indeed.

Some of us keep only the firstt night. I am really a very bad Jew when it comes to holidays. I hope Hashem will forgive me. Tossy obviously is keeping both nights, but so what. Now I am going to go since I amrather tired. Regards, and best wishes, Cipora

I'm one of many who believe that the Palestinians have had a very bad deal in the partition of their "PALESTINE". These POOR PEOPLE are being confronted by an army with sophisticated weaponry, and are made to endure the worst of treatment imaginable; at check points, Road Blocks,near 30 feet high Walls, fences , builds on their last remaining 20% side of the border. Then to see that some Posters, while wearing blinkers,insulted them as animals:-(them Pals. who have lost practically everything= NO WORK,NO MONEY, NO FOODS,UNABLE TO WORK THEIR LANDS, NO FREEDOM OF MOVEMENTS,No HEALTH CARE, etc etc, does make me furious. but I'm glad to see that there are many of us who believe in helping the underdogs, just as Peace Now too. GOD BLESS all the good People. PEACE.

I think this discussion is quite pointless. Most Israelis do believe in a two state solution. The problem is that most Palestinians do not. The Saudis cannot do more than they have because of fears of their own extremists. I have just read this in one of the Arab papers. Hamas, an Islamist party itself, fears the al-qaeeda type extrimists. Unfortunately, the Arab leaders have decided that they cannot, or will not, or both, defeat their extremists. Under the circumstances, I fail to see what Israel can do. She can most certaily not solve Europe's problems. Whatever you are promising is irrelevant since Israel is fighting for her survival. Who do you think created the private A. Q. Kahn network which has proliferated all over? The problem here is not Israel, but radical Islam.

Ivo, to be honest, thinking about the Lebanon war last summer, as well as the whole temple mountain uproar from a few weeks ago, I must admit that I can fully understand when many (Jewish)Israelis have certain doubts with regard to the Israel-loyality by their Arab- Israeli neighbours. Should we really get a Palestinian state one day, then I would assume that a majority of them would change voluntar- ly. Judging from abroad, I believe that their heart is a bit more with the Palestinian brothers than with the Israeli neighbours, which is actually just a natural thing and therefore not surprising at all. And with regard to Toseftas post, I think he was linking only the word "expulsion" to the bible and not at all the word "genocidal". Although both words have a very negative touch, there is still a heck of a difference between them....

Howdy Tosefta; We can shovel legal smoke at each other until hell freezes over, but who's going to enforce anything on the Israeli-Palestinian dogfight? Nobody, that's who. The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict will just have to run its course until both sides get tired of it and come to some mutually acceptable agreement on their own without any interference (oops, help) from third parties like the Quartet and the Arab League. I don't see much possibility in a negotiated solution until after the Arab oil money starts to run out in about 50 years due to the increase in oil prices and the corresponding competitiveness of alternative fuels.

ADJUNCT TO MARILYN,DORIS/DUTCH,HANNAH, MARLENE,MAUREEN ANN,AND THE LIST GOES ON. YOU ACCUSE JEFF NORTHRIDGE OF MAKING FALSE ASSUMPTIONS.NOW I'VE HEARD EVERYTHING!YOU MADAM NEED AN EDUCATION,FAILING THIS JUST BEST TO "FERMES LA GUEULE" YOU'D WELL TO RETRACT GIVING INFORMATION TO HAMZA,WHICH WILL ONLY CONFUSE THE POOR FELLOW. ALEZ VOUS AU DIABLE...............

"The Gaza Strip and Areas A & B in the West Bank are not currently occupied because an occupation ends when the occupying power no longer exercises the functions of government there. Those areas are under the benighted administration of the PA." You state that the areas are under the administration of the PA. Therefore you are arguing that an occupation does not occur if the occupying power chooses to allow the existing administrative functions to continue, or when it sets up a new indigenious civil administration. You fail to understand that under customary international humanitarian law the OP MUST allow the existing civil administatation to continue as much as is practicable. That is why the IDF continued to apply JORDANIAN law to the Palestinians after 1967, and still does. Your argument is a nonsense, Jeff, because by your definition an occupation can only occur if the military dismantles ALL the civil authority and takes over ALL the duties of government.

Just one point: if people start using a modern legal term like genocide to describe historical events, they will easily misuse historical analogies. I think that your point regarding Tosefta is a good example of this.

Ben Sourik Village Council versus the Government of Israel and the IDF Commander in the West Bank 1. Since 1967, Israel has been holding the areas of Judea and Samaria [hereinafter - the area] in belligerent occupation. 23 The general point of departure of all parties - which is also our point of departure - is that Israel holds the area in belligerent occupation (occupatio bellica). Paragraph 23 then goes on to review the rulings and the relevent section of International Law relating to occupation. It is all of "Judea and Samaria", Jeff, and it is all under "belligerent occupation". The question of East Jerusalem is not mentioned, because it is not relevent. The question of the applicability of the 4th GC is not considered, because the IHCJ decided that "the issue is not before us". Note that does not mean the GC *doesn't* apply, just that they won't consider it. The IHCJ ALWAYS refuses to consider it, coz it is a Hot Potato.

Dear Akram, It is impossible to outlow indictrination. Western countries, on the whole, believe in freedom of speech. Unfortunately, this freedom is not alway exercised responsibly. At this point, intimidation is beginning to be used to back up hate speech and indoctrination. In certain schools in the UK, they have stopped teaching the Holocaust because of Muslim intimidation. Democratic values in Europe have a hard time resisting fascistic and far left methods of intimidation. Fascism was not outlawed in Nuremburg. Those were simply trials for the perpetrators. The BNP is legal in the UK. Genocide itself was outlawed in a number of international treaties. Unfortunately, those treaties are unenforceable since there is no military force to back the treaties. I have no idea what can be done about Africa. As for the Muslims, I think things will get much worse for a long time before they can get better. I only hope that Israel will survive the coming storms. Shalom, and best wishes, Cipora

Firstly Maria I came here and was surprised to see so many Jews already have begun with their postings, and it is only just the first day of Passover! Nevermind,before I go please don't let those nasty people call you ignorant,nor let them BULLY you.It was disgusting to read,and even though managed to read only a couple May I wish you advance Happy Easter. P/s Haretz this is for Maria #205 Please let her read it.She is being bullied and needs some comforting words...

"No court is ever wrong is it" asks Paul Harris. No, Paul, it isn't. A court ruling is difinitive. It is only "wrong" if it is overruled by a higher court. What you are saying is that you don't *agree* with the ruling, which is not the same thing at all. I'll note that even in regard to THAT you are in the minority; the Government of Israel, the IDF Commander in the West Bank, and the Ben Sourik Village Council all *AGREED* with the Israel High Court of Justice. Which you would know if, perchance, you get off your high horse and actually read the ruling.

See, there is a God, which you deny. He created someone just for you and that could not have been easy. You didn't include me cause you know I am not ugly! Say, put your wife on and lemme talk to her. You write inane posts every day and folks continually point it out to you, however, we are quite used to you. What, no Ethiopians to clean your house? You go over there and pick em up so you can piggyback on them and then won't give them a job? Shame on you. You say your penthouse is posh? How do you have a posh trailer penthouse; did you raise it up above some cactus plants or something? BTW; given all the time you spend on here, you should do all the housework and give your wife a break, poor woman, poor woman! Regards.

Hi there (where?), - it's a legally binding modern term, but as a term w/a content it could be used, I think, to cover historical events as well (I'm not saying it would apply to acts committed by Israelites in biblical times). We're hopefully getting better at recognizing, naming & condemning acts of cruelty in the world. People tend to forget /not to realize that many of the legal progressive changes are pretty recent & had to be fought for vehemently. What I found troublesome w/Tosefta's linkage to expulsion in Exodus, was such a comment may be used by some &/strengthen perceptions of the kind "Jews do their evil deeds being inspired by their evil book", you know. Where did the Czechs find inspiration for expunging the vast number of Germans, incl. all those that were innocent, after WW2 (a legal act like crazy - by presidential decree - & no screams from the world)? Regards, -

Despite your thinly veiled anti semitism, I wish you Happy easter.My arguments are not shallow at all.they are based ona sound and lucid undrstanding of reality.What should it matter to you if I think israel should be close to europe and not the ME,you have your intrests and we have ours.Salaam!

Ronnie, as a football fan you will know the phenomena that very often teams who have one more player on the field are getting in trouble, although it should be a big advantage for them. I am afraid, Israel is the prototype of such a team, she would have all the (strategic) advantages on her side, but for whatever reason is sometimes just not able to benefit from them. I would call that almost tragic. Remember our "great" FIFA boss Sepp Blatter...?? "Football is a mirror of real life". Sometimes our Blatter Sepp is really a smart guy. A very smart one.

both about the technical aspects of the U.N.Resolutions and the humanitarian.242 gives a smaller share to the Palestinians than 181,20% I believe,rather than 44 % of historic Palestine. Re: the humanitarian aspect.I have been reading Jeff's posts for a few days now and intitially he seemed intelligent and well informed enough until I noticed things.He was often in error but continued to doggedly hold to his line in response to many of the bloggers.At first I thought he was in for a good argument.Progressively,it became clear that he was defending Israel's interests,while some of us were defending the P's.As the bloggers have shown, his legal info. is not always accurate. Also, a singular indifference on his part to the humanitarian aspect not just the legalistic.In some posts he expressly told a Palestinian blogger that he can come by a round about route to West Bank,indicating that he knew the geography quite well.We all know it's not that easy.Israel controls entire process of travel

Before Palestinians earn the right to a state of their own in the West Bank and Gaza, they should earn it by first creating a viable state in Gaza instead of electing terrorists into office whose stated aim is the destruction of the Jewish state. Any two-state solution is necessarily shallow because the Palestinians haven't shown they're adult enough to rule themselves. Salaam.

Hi Ballistic. First a "Mea Culpa"Re maria, it was I that called her Lady Jane and you were cc,d on the post.Anyway she will be ecstatic at my confession and will assume I am on the long road to recovery. As to #344 yeah I got the Ta Ta as well. I must have been uncoperative. Regards.

Cipor. I have no quarrel with your posting 316#. My point is the mobs' instigation and the promotion of 'mass hysteria' and all the other starting points of Genoucide; mainly 'indoctrination of hate. Historically this has its first day in court at Nuremburg after the 2nd world war. But,it was limited only to Facism which was made into a crime. Today, after what history is witnessing in Africa and the Middle East and elsewhere aniti-terrorism Laws are not enough.Such laws should be extended to cover all kinds of indoctrinaton of hate etc.. The Palalestinian Israeli conflict was mainly the result of corrupt Arab Leaders through out the history of this conflict. The Arab Leaders are in the queue of paying the price. Thank G-d

Cipora, My sincere apologies if you got the impression that I have repeated myself too often ("flipping the coin"). But as a (quite) polite person I usually try to answer all the posts, knowing only too well that this means that I will have to reiterate my position once in a while. And all it would take to change many (confused) Swiss minds would be a reassurance by the Israeli PM, that Israel is still believing in (and even more important !!) working for a two state solution. There have now 7 long years past (Camp David), since we (the world) saw something concrete on the Israeli table. Would be nice and reassuring to hear it again, but please, not just another vague formula, we urgently need some (Israeli) meat on the (Palestinian) bone..... And if "mainstream" Israelis would know what "gooddies" they could expect in paradise, they would jump on the Swiss peace train rather today than tomorrow...But first jumping please, then reaping....

- they make for funny, cartoon-like images in one's mind. One of the big blocs come w/another big (but vague) announcement & everybody is supposed to jump at "the new open horizon". As you also say, for all appearent reasons the distrust in the ME runs deep, & even more so after the capital of trust built up along Oslo has been so thoroughly wasted. We're gonna get nowhere if some of the leaders can't make a start together that reciprocally makes a rebuilding of that trust possible. That's why only a thoroughly worked out deal or a beginning of one, where things are clearly said, mutually understood & are made verifiable - clean as hell - , is gonna get us anywhere. That's why we only need straight talking, i.e. if the parties really have something to say. I wouldn't mind if they shut everybody out & talked in secret only, for a lengthier period of time 1st either. (By the way, I got out of Egypt late last night :))

Notice how "more land" always comes up? Yup, she is one of the slurp and squat on Pal and any other available land types. Now she advocates more land theft. It does appear she thinks she will continue to steal land unabated and unchecked. Oh well, whatever. Some folks don't have enough sense to put up an umbrella in the rain or recognize storm clouds gathering so they can haul arse into the house and I guess she is of that ilk. She is also a space shot; she posted me telling me not to post her anymore after she sent me two unsolicited BS posts out of the blue, same as what she sends to everybody. I wonder how many places over there they have for village idiots? Enough do you think to accommodate all encountered over there? Regards.

AND IT EXPLAINS TO YOU THAT YOU ARE WRITING CRAP TO JEFF. THE ICJ WAS KANGAROO COURT THAT EXCEEDED ITS JURISDICTION on 3 grounds AND DISQUALIFIED ITSELF AS AN IMPARTIAL JUDICIARY!! aharon barak doesnt even know what jurisdiction is !! SOME OF HIS COMMUNIST INSPIRED JUDGEMENTS WERE LUDICROUS ESPECIALLY THOS THAT OVERTURNED LEGISLATION !! . THE LACK OF REFERENCE TO TREATIES AND CONVENTIONS BY BOTH COURTS WAS AND REMAINS LAUGHABLE .

Regardless of your hatred for Arabs and Muslims, I still wish you and yours a happy Passover. Your argument for the two state solution is so shallow and ignorant...but I'll take it over those who use the Old Testament as a real estate document, any day of the week!!!! Shalom.

#341. He sounds like he has been talking to that god denying Paul Harris. I never ever would deny the existence of God. I just have a tad of trouble attributing to him half of what folks say he says and feels. BTW, Jesus NEVER mentioned the word Christians, did he? His teachings were the same as Moses. Regards.

MY HOUSEWORK IS SHARED BETWEEN MY WIFE AND ARUSSIAN AND ABULGARIAN NO FALASHAS ROUND HERE !! IT TOO POSH ON MY PENTHOUSE !! YOUR IGNORANT CERTIFICATE IS ON ITS WAY TO HENDERSON AND YOU WIN OVER ALL OTHER HAARETZ POSTERS !! THE DAY IWRITE AN INANE POSTER THE WORLD WILL BE AT ITS END !! I FORGOT TO INCLUDE YOU IN THE UGLY PHOTO BRIGADE !! SORRY !!

Only thing I ever did to you was ask questions. From your post, you sound like a righteous lady, no harm there. Unfortunately or fortunately, everyone doesn't believe what you do. No harm there either. Keep blogging. Regards.

If they hate arab that much then why do they works there?

Hello, Ivo, Genocide is a modern legal term, and as such, not applicable to events in biblical times, or even in recent times. Tosefta will use any method to win an argument, usually against Israel and Jews, but of course, it does not mean that the argument is historically or legally valid. That which was accepted practice in the not too distant past, no longer is so. It is estimated that some eight million Chinese died building the Great Wall. Today, that would be unthinkable. Regards, Cipora

Sometimes we shout from the rooftops (and hilltops)cheering on our pride about our accomplishments and so on but when others magnify us is it almost always in the negative. You are right Ivo,we ARE being unfairly put under the microscope relative to all other peoples.Our specimen as a people has been chosen and we have been demonized.Darfur means nothing to many people but the Palestinian issue? It is CRITICAL. No matter that they have threatened us with destruction.That means nothing.Nothing at all.No matter the groups all carry the intent to destroy us.That too means nothing at all.Nothing.They ONLY want to talk about checkpoints and the harsh treatment of their people.Even though Israel is protecting itself against bombers. Yes we ARE the Chosen but didnt choose ourselves for this.Everytime that someone puts us unfairly under this microscope we are being unfairly picked out.There can be a million Darfurs but one arab that gets frisked at the checkpoint and we are worse than satan

Tosefta,in your reality you come up with a thesis and envision all the steps along the way based on a vision of reality.For this you rely heavily on your knowledge of what you believe the arabs will do or the way they will react.You talk about agreements and hudnas like they are carved in stone.This is the main point. Even Humpty Dumpty knows that they break agreements by the minute in the ME. For this you expect Israel gives land for an agreement that may last two minutes. The base problem is there.It wont go away.Arabs find Israel within the ME despicable and it is as deep within the arab psyche as paranoia is within the Jewish psyche. You want reality.This is about as strong a reality fact as you will find anywhere on the planet.

lack of knowledge. "Religion dont make you "Christ"ian". Got it maria. now go back to your play pen.

OK, good if you don't subscribe to any of the nonsense, neither on genocide nor transfer. But you should note, there is no likelihood of even a "slow" transfer of Pals from the West Bank. Like Tosefta pointed out, the possible "buying out" idea concerned Israeli Arabs, possibly additional Arabs in future annexed areas (see his point again in #290). Even this is no policy, however supported it may be acc. to polls. Under the present circumstances support for this among the population shouldn't be too surprising, when many Israeli Arabs are more loyal to PA than to Israel. Tosefta is of course completely wrong on what the word "genocidal" means among the Swiss &/Europeans, & his linking today's idea of expulsion to it being part of the book of Exodus, I find quite tendencious. What is he trying to cook up under? I'd be sceptical to any great new explanations reg. biblical books, their dating etc etc as well. At least from people on this blog, if they aren't real scolars & experts. Rgd

.......this is a song:He could have called ten thousand angels to destroy the world and set Him free,He could have called ten thousand angels, but HE DIED ALONE FOR YOU AND ME.

there will be no peace in the middle east until the PRINCE OF PEACE comes.then the whole promised land will be restored,dome of the rock will disappear mysteriously.

"Where do you find that an "occupied" territory must have been part of the "sovereign" territory of the party to conflict?" - Tosefta "And where do you find that it isn`t?" - Jeff N Here is a problem you have in the "legal" field. An international treaty defines the conditions for its applicability. If a condition to undo applicability is not mentioned, then such condition is not valid. This is a plain fact. IN ADDITION, I mentioned to you ICJ and IHCJ interpretations that agree with me and not you. If you want your opinion to override the Israeli Supreme Court's opinion, why don't you go to law school, prove yourself to be a genius, and we will listen. You get confused by what appears to you to be counter-examples, such as the annexation of Tibet to China and unification of Vietnam. Could it be that they are not counter-examples? How would you know if you don't allow your mind free thought? Annexation of territory by force is prohibited by the UN Charter, and applies to nations which accepted the Charter, and since the time of their acceptance. FYI, neither Tibet nor Communist China were members of the UN at the time of annexation, nor were the two Vietnams. They annexed, and nobody could say a word. I hope you deal with the rest of your examples in a similar fashion. I have no time today, and this is my last post for the day. Happy Easter to you.

Thanks for the kind worlds. However, again if you were following my posts, all I have been talking about is the cause & effect here. Sixty year old Arab world CAUSE to eradicate Naqba & Israeli EFFECT on that. Sometimes, unjust, unfair, mistake filled, many times brutal, many times forced into angry reactions by constant nudging, provocations & conning, (I can see many Israeli weaknesses, including the latest foray into causal military preparedness & lack of readiness, public tilt into `unwarranted humanitarian cause` overkill, aiding & abating enemy for the good of mankind, & so forth, no different I may add that the rest of the democratic evolution in much of the world). You are right in one regard, one of the main cores of the conflict is the EFFECT to the CAUSE.

Don't worry one bit..Israel will be in great shape...and if the arabs continue to wage war then possibly Israel will have more land. By the way how come you are avoiding my question...how come you are not worried about your fellow Christians and what is happenening to them in muslim countries? You know ethnic cleansing muslim style..first the Jews now the Christians. Are you having trouble justifying their actions or are they acceptable because it is easier to pile on the Jews? Shame on you and the church...keeping quiet while your own are being slaughtered...does Darfur ring a bell to you?Ask the Coptics in Egypt what is happening to them and ask the Iraqi Christians why the muslims have bombed 28 churches? A fact to remember...when you are greedy and wish to destroy a nation as the arabs did in 1948 and continue to do so you pay the consequences and then you suffer from them until you decide to act like normal rational people and not savages.

Based on your past posts, I bet you have those Ethiopians cleaning up from the mess you make sitting in one spot spitting out inane posts. What, you are not worried about my employer today. I saw Kath said the same thing. I wonder who her employer is as she stays on day in, day out, same as you. Say are you paying the woman to do your housework, or are you giving her a peanut butter sandwich for lunch as she works. Does she cook chicken and cornbread cause you indicated you love those two dishes. As far as my home, well, I do my own housework in between answering your inane posts. How is your trailer; is it clean or does it have coffee cups all over. Get those windows cleaned so you can see that new Pal state coming soon. Did you get the UHaul coupon I sent. If stuff gets hot over there, come on to Vegas. We will put your inane arse up till you find somebody who wants to put up with you. Regards.

Thought I might share this with you also .May perhaps provide a little perspective for you. The Arabs attacked Israel in hopes of killing all the Jews and getting all the land". Not quite correct Connie.Here is a more factual version of the truth and can be found in the "the Peel commissions" Records. Part of the PC plan involved a "Population transfer". 225,000 Arabs(Palestinians ) were to be transferred out of the "New Jewish Home land" and just a paltry 1250 Jews were going in the opposite direction. Now try the application of a little perspective and put yourself in the shoes of those 225,000 Palestinians and their ancestors who had been living there for hundreds of years.If you have difficulty getting there then just cast your mind back to Gaza and think of the "Settlers" being tossed out.Does that work for you. Now do you begin to understand. Google "Peel Commission" and learn about coins. Regards

can perform miracles but would rather not. give unto caesar that which is caesar's or anyone claiming to be caesar. Land, Israel, possessions, are meaningless and if they kill you because you have none of them and are defenseless just think of the pleasure of the coming Heaven. Give Golan to caesar or his stand in Assad.. Give Judea & Samaria to those who want it. Better a wanderer who believes in me than a human being who can protect his family and land from murderers. Love you enemy and turn the other cheek when he blows up the Egged bus your wife and children were on. Believe in me for the knife going through Daniel Pearl's neck is only transitory.

Howdy Fairman; The original UN partition plan of 1947 has nothing to do with the Green Line of 1949 (which was an armistice line and not a border at Arab insistence at the Rhodes Conference). I lost my heart in Vietnam 38 years ago, but I still have my brain. The "Poor Pals" as you put it can have 100% of the Gaza Strip, 92% of the West Bank (on their side of the security barrier), and the predominately Palestinian neighborhoods of East Jerusalem for their futuristic Islamic Republic of Palestine. Arab Christians will have to decide if they want to live under Israeli or Sharia law. Most Christians will probably decide that they are better off under Israeli law. No "right of return" for either Jewish or Palestinian refugees or their descendants, but rather, compensation for property loses to be made on a 1-1, pairwise, reciprocal basis. Nobody is going to accept that in near future, but that's what I see as the final outcome (probably after I'm dead).

That holy trinity stuff never made any sense to me. There are folks who claim on the History Channel they have found Jesus' tomb and it has caused quite a hub bub from the religious community saying you cannot undermine this and that. Very interesting! Regards.

A sad little boy werent you? is that why you hate us all now??

We had all been promised paradise once before, and look at what has happened to us. Dino, thank you, but we shall decline this time.

"An occupation ends and the occupying power is no longer bound by the articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention which pertain to occupations when the occupying power no longer exercises the functions of government there. Period." - Jeff N Jeff, you have decided on your own definition of when an "occupation" ends. Whether it is true or not, Article 6 does NOT address this issue. For example, the article may be envisioning a situation where more than 1 Power is the occupier. The one who does not run the "functions of government" does not have the listed obligations. Just from reading Article 6 you cannot tell when an occupation ends. You give us an example of how pre-conceived notions can interfere with objective understanding. The text of the Article is simple to understand. Labhras says about my explanation: "Tosefta, Thanks for making it so crystal clear." I have to leave now and have no more time for the Forum today. How about checking with Labhras or some friends of yours?

The UN may use conventional colors to indicate differences in legal status of borders, but they are all borders. Obstaining from the published or dictionary definitions of borders & sticking to the logic, the difference in legal status that you & your ilk are so found of, now of course pales in comparrison to that they are what you unite under & call simply borders of no definition meaning. I know it does not matter if it is the Rolls Royse or Volkswagen, they are all cars. Great tool for argument when there is `no ammo` for the argument left. Kind of like all the Israeli bashers around the world with no ammo for the Arab world & particularly the Pal role in the conflict because everything is so obvious there, turning to occupation, oppression, genocide & all the available `back at you game of finger pointing, deluding & destorting issues` covering the reality.

& others - yes. Others in Fatah + others - not at all sure. 4.You're never willing to deal w/the radicals - this is so far proven. Add to this all the upheavals during this period, espec. the last 3 years. 5.Sharon did sign up to the roadmap (this was 2003), however useless it may have shown to be, it's still there. Plus you did have other nongovernm. initiatives like Geneva & the other similar one that also did speak for Israelis. 6.The burning issue is the Pal. issue, it's more than enough, no? Israel doesn't really have an issue w/the Arab world. IT has been trying to swallow it up, not the other way round. They're being extremely late, & IF THEY REALLY WANT TO CHANGE THIS, GIVE US SOMETHING REAL TO BEGIN WITH, NOT A WORD GAME THAT LOOKS LIKE ANOTHER TRAP. You can be sure Israel will respond energetically when that happens. Regards, Dino, -

One the main reasons I am so avid for a two state solution is for Israel tot ake up the eu on its official offer of associate status.israels primary future lies with Europe, the ME is for losers, europe is going places.I hope to see israel get much closer to europe.Their still to many dummies however who cant think beyond Ariel and a for more dunams in the west bank.Regards

"All it would take is one official declaration by an Israeli government...." To do what, Dino? What would Israel have to do, exactly, to change 50% of swiss minds?

Hi Ballistic, Seems to me that if Jesus was the son of God (Holy trinity and all that) then he could have stopped the Jews or any one else at any time. Regards

"In our world, you can tell there was an "almost" civil war if there were bloody clashes and people got killed. Have you heard such news?" - Tosefta "`almost civil war` was the result of & therefore can not share into the Abbas` `dream of nothing but the Israeli peace partner for ever` just yet, nor we are so clever to connect Hamas/Fatah clashes to it." - TonyL Sorry Tony, You are not in Wonderland and far from the level of Ronnie W. Ronnie doesn't even know there were clashes and an "almost civil war". You are talking about cause and effect (and cleverly do not venture to offer a cause). Ronnie's problem is even with basic facts. Sorry I will have no time today to reply. Must leave soon.

How many times have you flipped that coin? If you flip it any more, you just might end up on the wrong side.

not all christians are arabs....most arabs are muslim(their religion is islam).arabs means people;muslims means people worshipping allah.you say you are a christian? are you a born again christian?how did you become a christian?religion won't make you a christian.

NO IS AS IGNORANT AS YOU ARE SO DONT WORRY THE WONT TAKE YOUR CERTIFICATE AWAY FROM YOU ! WHEN DO YOU DO YOUR HOUSEWORK YOUR PLACE MUST BE AREAL MESS .

(I see you have a lot to do here, but -) Well, - you do consistently hold it up against Israel that its hesitation is the main block to any further movement of the process, & you do state things like "this will drive more Pals toward radicalism" etc (this is the "weather" Israel is creating on the other side). Besides, you're not "mainstream", as you do make an effort to be informed. Maybe you meant part of "center" politically, among those engaged? & most Haaretz articles don't argue the way you do, although they do criticize even harshly. To your main question. I do not claim this is the ultimate answer, but: You keep forgetting the last Intifada (has it ended yet?) was like a war & had to be fought. Israel to Pals:"when will you stop fighting?" 1.First we need an end to the fighting. 2.We have already stated our proposal. Everybody knows it well. What else, basically, do you want us to offer? 3.We're still not sure you really want to be /can be a partner. Part of Fatah,

Danite, I know that you will be hard to convince when it comes to us Europeans, but I can assure you: It would take very little and Israel could be the darling of the (Western) world, Europe included. Just a few steps (I think we pretty much agree on those...) and Israel would be at the entry gate to paradise, and I mean with that the paradise on earth of course....:) Regards.

Howdy Tosefta; You said, "Where do you find that an "occupied" territory must have been part of the "sovereign" territory of the party to conflict?" And where do you find that it isn't? There have been countless civil wars around the globe and nobody claims that territory seized by one side or the other is "occupied" by a foreign power. There are even cases in which the areas in question were sovereign states at one time (like Tibet and the Republic of Vietnam) which are not considered to be "occupied" today, but rather, as "reclaimed" territory. If worst comes to worst, I can always fall back on the "right of conquest" and force you to enforce your interpretation of international law (which nobody's going to do) down everybody else's throat. Have a nice Passover. Pharaoh Jeff (Pharaoh of Upper and Lower Egypt, Emperor of California, and the Protector of Mexico) over and out.

Paul Harris told you the truth of it. There was a historical Jesus, but he was not murdered by Jews.

Ivo, I never said that I do believe in the transfer theory, I only tried to explain the inner thinking of 50 % of my compatriots. Again, all it would take is one official declaration by an Israeli governement on how it sees the future of its country, and all the conspiracy theories would be swept away. And even if it would not be for the Europeans and the Americans, but wouldn't the Israeli people deserve to know, in which direction the (Israeli) ship is going...?? As an Israeli I would wanna know. And very much so. Happy Easter too, Ahoi...:)

aren't you. You send me two BS posts about beaming up, this and that, and then have the moxie to say I SHOULD NOT POST YOU! Well, I don't see one initial post to you, but rather you posted me with the same sort of BS you are sending to others and then you announce I should no longer post you! Now, what should my response be; should I lose sleep, hardly! No need to get your panties in a bunch about something you started, however, I can see from your other posts you have moxie. As far as victimhood is concerned, you are certainly free to believe whatever you choose, however, others are free to recognize the falsity of your beliefs. Yup, on here we separate out perpetrators from victims and somehow under folks like you some people were confused. However, folks are straightening it out in their mind. If you don't wanna get BS, don't send it. Say, do you believe in an eye for an eye, or are you one of the heathens over there? If you do, that principle was employed for my response!

...In our world, you can tell there was an "almost" civil war if there were bloody clashes and people got killed. Have you heard such news?... Hello out there, Message from Wonderland, over here we are not so sure the `almost civil war` was the result of & therefore can not share into the Abbas` `dream of nothing but the Israeli peace partner for ever` just yet, nor we are so clever to connect Hamas/Fatah clashes to it. But we are always amused in Wonderland when someone like yourself or Mark Lincoln knowingly demise your own intellect (sometimes significantly enough to the point of clearly unrealistic) with the spun material or twisted logic, just to attempt & prove your own mindset as the given reality, but does not have any persuasion effect (at least on unbiased & healthy minded) whatsoever.

Real Israeli PM to Abbas: East Bank must be included in all Talks Because that is your Palestine.

Fred go there at your peril.

Hello Dino, I imagine that if the Swiss are talking about "genocide", they actually mean forced expulsion. So I understood that your post #153 was on the dot. I just wanted to let you know what the actual situation was. One actually does have to fear even the idea of "induced" transfer, even by paying the Arabs. Once this becomes an accepted policy, and is shown not to work, there will be people who will advocate harsher measures. The religious settlers will certainly be among them. Interestingly, the origin of expulsion is in the Bible. People are more familiar with the Deuteronomic law of exterminating the indigenous Canaanites (Deut. 20:16-18). But Deuteronomy is a relatively late book (7th cent. BC) and had its own theory about the disappearance of the Canaanites. An older source (E) only demanded that the Canaanites be expelled (Exodus 23:31-33). Incidentally, this is also a theory after the fact. The fact is that Israel grew out of the Canaanites (as archeology indicates).

The concept of "genocide" within international law is unfortunately, a necessary one. Although, it has thus far not prevented one single genocide from occurring, it has allowed to punish perpetrators. Like all terms in the vocabulary, "genocide" can be misused for political purposes. When large numbers of people in a society believe that Israel will commit genocide, such belief is a blood libel since it is a belief in Jewish murder of others, not based on fact, but on the belief system of that society. It is the ugliest, most perverse rot I have heard in a long time. Contrary to what Dino claims, this is classic anti-Semitism. The rise of anti-Semitism in Europe has very little to do with Israel. It has to do with old European demons. The press, the political and intellectual leadership are to be blamed, as is always the case. Europe has a very serious problem on its hands. It is not Israel's problem, but Europe's problem. Regards, Cipora

listen and offer too little or nothing at all.

Hi Steve, Never fails does it. We are remembered for our last post if you get my drift. Keep posting,not because you agree with me and not because you disagree with them??. Now there is some real "Double Speak" from Ireland. Think I am ready for politics. Regards

"The Arabs attacked Israel in hopes of killing all the Jews and getting all the land". Not quite correct Connie.Here is a more factual version of the truth and can be found in the "the Peel commissions" Records. Part of the PC plan involved a "Population transfer". 225,000 Arabs(Palestinians ) were to be transferred out of the "New Jewish Home land" and just a paltry 1250 Jews were going in the opposite direction. Now try the application of a little perspective and put yourself in the shoes of those 225,000 Palestinians and their ancestors who had been living there for hundreds of years.If you have difficulty getting there then just cast your mind back to Gaza and think of the "Settlers" being tossed out.Does that work for you. Now do you begin to understand. Google "Peel Commission" and learn about coins.

secular books , start reading the GOOD BOOK so that you won't be ignorant of IT.

#13:The Palestinians are blamed for those acts of killings for which they are responsible.If the Palestinians were to spend the energy and money they have to attempt to destroy the State of Israel on their own infrastucture, eg roads, bridges, buildings, homes, hospitals and education,good government, honest judiciary and representative government and outlaw the private militias, there could be a stable peace between Israel and the Palestinian nation.But they cannot have Israel.

I did not say that.....there are some arabs who are true christians....you wrote:palestinian christians are arabs and at the same time christian----arabs means people;muslims means people believing in allah,am I right? are they born again though?there are some christians who profess to be chrisitians,but are not true christians....true christians are born again....Jesus said, except a man be born again,he cannot see the kingdom of God.....God Almighty wants everybody to be born again....,but God gave us a choice---He didn't make us as robots--it's up to us to believe Him-admit we're sinner;believe that He died in our place,but rose again after 3 days; ask Him to forgive our sin and accept Him as our personal savior---if you pray that with all your heart,you're born again .everybody is welcome at His table whether he/she is yellow,brown,black and white.tell me...who did you become a Christian?you see,good works,keeping the seven sacraments,etc.won't get you to heaven,only Jesus.

"both the Sharon and Olmert governments have opened the door to conspiracy theories...." No, they did not, not any more than the American government opened the door to the theory that nine eleven was in fact orchastrated by the mossad and/or the cia. Where 50% of the population believes a complete falsehood, then without doubt, there is something wrong with that society. As I told you before, the problem is in Switzerland, not in Israel. Israel has its own problems, but the belief by 50% of the Swiss that Israel would commit genocide is a Swiss problem. I suggest you people fix it.

Ivo, I have no issue at all with Israel being tough and strict when her survival is at stake. But the decisions to delay again and again the dismantling of illegal Israeli settlement outposts, as well as the expansion of already existing settlements (especially in the heart of the West Bank) have absolutely nothing to do with Israels security, but only with ideological fanatism. As if it wouldn't be bad enough to have those fanatical extremists already on the Palestinian side.... And with regard to the media, maybe you have a look at my response to S, I would politely agree to disagree with you on that one...:)

Howdy Tosefta; An occupation ends and the occupying power is no longer bound by the articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention which pertain to occupations when the occupying power no longer exercises the functions of government there. Period. You can dance and prance all you like and try to reinterpret Article 6 of the Fourth Geneva Convention in some other fashion, but I for one will not let you get away with it and will continue to oppose you on this point.

Please keep in mind Tosefta is an anti semite, he is always trying to paint israel in the worst light.Regards

"You know as well as I do that International Law does not use the vernacular definition of a border" We also know that diplomats do not use the vernacular when describing a "Pain in the ass" (opponent).They use terms such as "Difficult" "Steadfast" etc, but mean "Pain in the Ass" in any event Regards

europeans often project the evil they have in themselves towards others onto Jews and israel and the 'evil" they invent for us.if 50% of swiss believe that israel has plans to transfer the Pals out of the west bank all I can say is that the old medieval paranoid anti rational way of thinking has not been extinguished.it is part of the general trend to irrationalism as an explanation of reality as the demands of reason are too much for many to deal with.The euros still have very deep problems.They seek to purge themselves by ascribing evil to their former victims in order to assuage their guilty feelings about what they have running around their own brains.Regards

Sorry for the misunderstanding Tosefta, I didn't wanna say with my post that those 50 % (actually it's quite difficult for me to speak for them, since I would never have subscribed to the "genocidal" statement) believe that Israel would transfer them just overnight. No, I assume they rather believe as you said that Israel would like to do it either through financial incentives or by making live simply unbearable for the Palestinians in the territo- ries. Which would of course be kind of an ethnical cleansing, although a more "gentle" one. But as mean spirited as it would be, one could still not call it a "genocidal" act.

because they believe in the GOD of the Bible---the God of Abraham,Isaac, and Jacob....you know why the jews are hated the most---the world thinks that the jews killed Jesus---that's the mentality of the world.....in reality...Jesus laid His life for all of us.some you here---you believe in God ,but not the God of the Bible.

Howdy Vijaya & Timothy; Actually, the Tibetans have been "oppressed" by the Chinese for almost the same length of time as the Palestians. I can't remember when China invaded Tibet, but I think that it was in 1950 about 2 years after the Israeli War of Independence. The Chinese consider Tibet to be a rebel province of China and not a sovereign state under occupation. Even the U.S. has agreed that Tibet is a province of China (see the CIA World Factbook), but I don't know when that happened. The "Free Tibet" crowd is beating a dead horse because China will veto any UNSCR which calls for her withdrawal from Tibet and because nobody wants to go to war with China over a Himalayan, Buddhist theocracy which has no oil, gold, or diamonds. I'm afraid that the Tibetans will just have to cope with their Chinese-imposed, communist utopia until hell freezes over because nobody is going to confront China on the issue.

It's too bad that people resort to insults when someone disagress with them. I suppose when you are parroting someone else and don't have an idea of your own you have to do something. The funny thing is that my question was really intended to be rhetorical. It looks like several people took the bait.

Come on, Ivo, don't exaggerate, I am not keeping the onus only on Israel, but it's true, I (and many other "mainstreams" abroad) am simply disappointed when it comes to Israels diplomatic performance over the past 7 years. And you know what, if you read most of the Haaretz articles here, we are in quite good (Israeli) company with that.... The thing that makes me really a bit wondering: Nevertheless Hamas stubborn refusal to accept Israel (which I have criticized many times here) and nevertheless the awful terror attacks commited by groups like Islamic Jihad: If the governement of Israel is really longing for peace, and if she doesn't like the Arab peace initative, why in all those years since Camp David hasn't Israel made just one own proposal for peace, why hasn't she taken just once the initiative and addressed the Arab neighbours...?? If I would be Israeli citizen I wouldn't let my governement get away with such a lousy record.....Definitely not.

Dino, - 1st, "mainstream Europe" has a mostly extremely superficious, if any, knowledge &/opinion of the ME & aren't able to make such a qualified judgement on the last period of the Israel-Pal. saga, i.e. noticing what moves Sharon & Olmert wrongly have /haven't been doing. That's reserved to a few opinionmakers & journalists who may have been pointing it out. 2.Talking to Arafat probably would've shortened Intifada??? 3.Olmert hasn't declared Abbas irrelevant yet. 4.You're almost making up a conspiracy theory of your own reg. "Israel's true intentions". The last official & REAL intention proposed as an alternative has been "convergence" & unilateral separation, not transfer. Where are you taking this from, the few people in Likud still in love w/that idea? There are several Israels, Dino, & there IS an official one. You're stretching this idea far, far too far. Happy Easter (/skiing holiday) to you, -

Hi Tosefta, Thanks for making it so crystal clear. Cannot imagine even the ordinary mind having trouble grasping that simple concept. Maybe it is the presence of an alternate choice that confuses.

Jeff, the word "border" is a noun which can take adjectives. it can be "permanent border", "temporary border", "recognized international border", etc. If you posses a secret dictionary used by diplomats, I would like you to cite the definition of "border" there. Your own idiosyncratic definition is of no legal force and therefore irrelevant. Note also that in the past I gave you a quote from a UNGA resolution which referred to the border between Israel and Lebanon as "border", even though to this day it is an armistice line. Yes, borders can be armistice lines too, just as a person can be a man, woman, or child. COLORS: The UN may use conventional colors to indicate differences in legal status of borders, but they are all borders. The UN may indicate the population of a country by little human figures (1 figure per million people) but, for other purposes, may want to indicate men by a figure wearing pants, women wearing a dress, etc.

of the well informed TOSEFTA and I'm very satisfied with the answers.Have you had the opportunity of appreciate this valued piece of information.? REALLY Jeff, the BORDER? Green Line?, Blue line ?of ISRAEL should have been the very BORDER? (of the PARTITION TIME, 47) that WAS promptly ACCEPTED by Israel. Ain't that fair? The land that needs to be evacuated is the Territories that have been under O C C U P A T I O N for so long, HIDIHI Jeff. The Palestinians are NOT asking Israel to GO BACK to the partition line/Borders/or something else you fancy to call it from your secret Diplomats Dictionary.? but to he Green line,the pre67 border????(that's again is another 23% more of Pals. land) added to Israel.How much more do they want from the Poor Pals. Jeff, just give us an idea how fair could you be for the long suffering Palestinians Arabs/Christians ? We don't want some Definitions + Nos.but something from your heart.PEACE

So connie now you got all that off your chest when are you going to expend your energy making peace with the Palestinians. By the way most realists accept that Israel is going to be there, the only question is what shape it will take. Regards.

S, please forget about the media, all in all I would still judge the European media as giving a more accurate picture of the Middle East conflict than FOX News and CNN Usa. I would say our ME reporting here in Europe comes pretty close to U.S. newspapers like the New York Times or the Los Angeles Times, so absolutely no reason here to shoot the European (media) messenger.... I would rather say, the problem is, not everybody in Switzerland has the time, patience and interest (well, do I have the time...??:) to occupy with the ME conflict, so it's very difficult for "average" people to regognize certain shades. Which again, would make it even more important for the Israeli people to finally elect reasonable politicians who are willing to lead the state of Israel in their best interest.

You see what happens when you get off your soapbox, stop swearing & cursing at all & sundry, calm down & talk. You see, people will listen, even agree & bother to respond. Just one thing why the upper case? WHY SHOUT?

Sorry, added an extra "R". Sort of made up for the extra three meetings you had scheduled per month

"I don`t believe that 50 % of the Swiss would accuse Israel of genocide, but they do believe that Israels governement is secretly planing to sooner or later transfer the Palestinians from the West Bank to Jordan." - Dino Hello Dino, Israelis are aware that "transfer" is illegal under international law. This Israeli government, as well as previous ones, did not promote any such acts. There is now in the Knesset a religious party some members of which did express the thought publicly. (They are settlers, and settlers believe in divine law more than in State law.) Based on the above, I don't believe any act of transfer will take place directly. The majority of Israelis today support the idea that Arabs within the State (and whatever territory is annexed to it) should be induced to leave. People think of payments. Unfortunately for them, the Arabs lived for many years under very difficult conditions, but their number is rapidly going up, not down.

Howdy Tosefta; It's no problem for me. You know as well as I do that international law does not use the vernacular definition of a border. In fact, international law distiguishes very carefully between internationally recognized borders (which are colored blue), armistice lines (which are colored green), demilitarized zones (which are colored purple), etc. For examples, the Line of Control in Kashmir is colored green because it is an armistice line and not a border and the DMZ on the Korean peninsula between North and South Korea is colored purple. Legal definitions seldom agree entirely with common sense definitions. For example, in the State of Oregon, "manufacture of a controlled substance" legally includes the cultivation of marijuana even though nothing is being "manufactured" in the latter case. "But the Green Line is still the border of Israeli law today." That's not quite right as you yourself mentioned since East Jerusalem has been annexed to Israel and it is across t

- like the weather /just nature, where choices aren't actually significant. Your poll probably says something rather about the Swiss. By the way, as far as I know the Swiss have one of the best & best prepared armies in the world (w/a "rotation" system not unlike the reservist system in Isr.), but they never have to fight! In E., you'll only need to see the heat being turned up a l. bit more, a few more "successes" for the radicals, & you'll have a sea-change both reg. the positivity & what harsh measures the electorates will drive authorities to put in place. It will still bear no resemblance to the risks Israel in fact has to contemplate (you keep ignoring this, Dino, & argue as if the last 15 years didn't happen). For the best example of unfair coverage in E., compare the attention given to the Lebanon war & the simultaneous crisis in Darfour, where you actual. do have a genocide, a ratio of x200 victims & real culprits, incl. China & Russia! Where are the screaming newsp.!!!?

"the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties" - Art. 2 "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies." - Art. 49, 4th Geneva Convention "the provision on the transfer of people contained in the Fourth Geneva Convention applies only to territory seized from sovereign states and not to rebel provinces such as Judea, Samaria, and Tibet." - Jeff N Where do you find that an "occupied" territory must have been part of the "sovereign" territory of the party to conflict? I will repeat what I told you in the past, Jeff. And let me also suggest that whenever your opinion conflicts with Johnboy's, you should assume that you are wrong, because he looks at many primary sources and you don't. 1. The ICJ determined that the Geneva Convention applies when a conflict starts by parties to the convention (such as Israel and Jordan), even if the end result is the occupation of a territory not within the sovereignty of any of them. 2. The Israeli Supreme Court ACCEPTS this argument and considers the West Bank to be under belligerent occupation. (Read the decision Jonhboy mentions in #214 ? the Ben Sourik case). I mentioned this to you a few times before, but you don't want to ?waste? your time checking facts. The Pharaoh of False Facts makes laws all by himself, but they only apply in Upper and Lower Egypt, not in the West Bank.

Danite, you may have had a point with regard to European "nonchalance" towards Muslims, but at least in Switzerland things have changed quite a bit. Since we had several serious incidents over the past couple of years with young Muslim gangs involved, many politicians are calling now for a policy of zero tolerance. I can't speak for other European countries, but at least in Switzerland there is no fear of a Muslim backlash whatsoever. So if 50 % of the Swiss are believing that Israel is secretly planing to expell the Pale- stinians from the West Bank, this has very little to do with a fear of Muslim repercussions but very much with Israels policy of non- dialogue over the past 7 years. I hate to say it, but unfortunately both the Sharon and Olmert governement have opened the door for conspiracy theories of all kind with their stubborn attitu- de. Which of course still is no excuse for half of the Swiss population to describe Israels policy as "genocidal".

"In fact my bloodline is closer to Christ than most Christians. " Where in the New Testament scriptures does it say that salvation is contingent on genetics or bloodline? Do you all just make it up as you go along?

The thing about the 50% of Swiss accusing Israel of genocide is mind boggling. Trying to pinpoint the reasons of it is futile. Israel made one mistake after another but in an environment of terror without end and a failed, major peace attempt at Camp David. Right now our poor country is damned with an unpopular government too, versus a ridiculous opponent who "doesn't recognize" us, promises openly to destroy us, and speaks from both sides of its mouth. And there are the Swiss becoming "more and more" anti-Israel on "moral" grounds - genocide no less! I can imagine what a friendly media we had there to arrive at such enormity.

To equate Israel with the old So.Africe is not only dangerous but factually a lie. Go back to 1948..Israel and the palestinians were both granted countries. The arabs attacked Israel in hopes of killing all of the Jews and getting all of the land. Didn't work the way they wanted...hence they have been waging war ever since. And how does this equate with So.Africa may I ask?

Yes I've heard the news...after acting like animals you have come to some kind of peace and now the Irish have found a new cause,the palestinians. What a hoot. Maybe there will never be peace in the world because simply put Israel will stay just where it is and will have the Holy City of Jerusalem as her capitol. One would think that a Catholic country would be worried about the deaths of Christians throughout the Arab world but I guess good old Jew hatred takes precedent.Old habits die hard.

How (badly) the European media have been covering the ME & how informed most Europeans are about it is a whole chapter on its own. The winds really changed w/the Intifada & onward. I remember how strikingly obvious that was w/a huge media outlet like the BBC & it was true all over espec. Western Europe. The slanted repetitions & daily counting of heads just had to have a manipulative effect on a large scale. People are mostly ignorant, have little background info (not to mention their prejudice). Dino, you're quite unfairly keeping the weight of the burden exclusively on Israel. Last 6 years? Most of them the Intifada was raging & media WAS misepresenting it, just because Israel actually fought back?! Your view is but a repetition of this always keeping the onus on Israel, they're the ones responsible & having real choices, they are free actors & there's no background to what they have to do. On the other hand they "create" the situation of the other side, which is to be treated

"the Occupying Power shall be bound, for the duration of the occupation, to the extent that such Power exercises the functions of government in such territory, by the provisions of the following Articles" - Art.6, 4th Geneva Convention "The Gaza Strip and Areas A & B in the West Bank are not currently occupied because an occupation ends when the occupying power no longer exercises the functions of government there." - Jeff N Jeff gives us multiple opportunities to learn about people with no ability to read legal texts and observe fine points therein. Jeff uses as definition of "occupation" the period when the Power exercises the "functions of government". The way a sharper person would read Article 6 would be: a. An occupation exists and a certain Power is called an "Occupying Power". b. If that Occupying Power exercises the functions of government, then he is bound by the following articles. c. If that Occupying Power does not exercise the functions of government, then it is not bound by the following articles. You get that Jeff? If not, how about asking one of your high-school students to explain it to you? Alternatively, you can ask the English teacher. She will understand too.

You must have spiffied up that coffee. You must be a retired lawyer, cause lawyers say if the facts are with you, cite the facts; if the law is with you, cite the law and if neither is on your side, sling BS and lots of it and hope some will stick to the wall! Lawyers also say that "truth is what you can make the jury believe it is"! Did you ever read the lawyer's bible, the 'Bramble Bush'? Have more coffee and keep looking out that window to see "US Law" in action! Regards. Ballistic.

the club of the right minded posters opposing the rah rah bad behavior supporters! Gee, it seems our numbers are increasing and I wonder why, however, your post is right on and you seem to anticipate receiving the usual Israeli tag team BS spin in response to your post! Yup, that is what you will get, but keep on posting anyway. Enjoyed your post and I will see what they push your way. High regards. Ballistic.

Definition of "border" (Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary): Main Entry: bor*der Function: noun Etymology: Middle English bordure, from Anglo-French, from border to border, from Old French bort border, of Germanic origin; probably akin to Old English bord board 1 : an outer part or edge 2 : an ornamental design at the edge of a fabric or rug 3 : a narrow bed of planted ground along the edge of a garden or walk (a border of tulips) 4 : BOUNDARY (crossed the border into Italy) 5 : a plain or decorative margin around printed matter Jeff as usual hides all problems under the rug by using some idiosincratic definition of a word. Here is the definition of a border. The relevant one is #4, boundary. Jeff claims he has a secret dictionary which is used by diplomats. No, the word "border" means the boundary of something. The Green Line was the temporary border of Israel pre-67. To this day it is the border where Israeli law applies (except Jerusalem and Golan). Israeli law does not apply in the West Bank. According to the Geneva Convention, the previous law (Jordanian) applies. We all hope that one day there would be an agreed upon, permanent, international border between Israel and Palestine. It will not be the Green Line, most likely. But the Green Line is still the border of Israeli law today.

Howdy Fairman; The "freedom fighters" of whom you speak are not content to "liberate" the Palestinian Territories. Their goal is to "raise the banner of Allah over every [square] inch of Palestine" (including Israel) via "Jihad as the only way" (including terrorism). There is nothing illegal about an occupation (it is a well-defined state of affairs under the Fourth Geneva Convention) provided that 1) the occupying power honors its obligations to the civilian population (which are pretty minimal) and, in this case, 2) the conditions for an Israeli withdrawal as specified in UNSCR 242 have not been met. Which land is Arab land and which is Israeli land depends on where the border is. If you can figure that one out, then I'll give you a gold star. Hint: the border is not the Green Line. Try something else.

Chachmeister, I think Burkhardt was just reflecting a growing perception in Europe (and elsewhere) that Israel is trying to evade negotiations at all costs. I guess the whole thing started during the second Intifada when Sharon categorically refused to talk to Arafat, even if it (probably) could have brought a quicker end to the Intifada. But I think the "mainstream" public opinion in Europe started to turn against Israel, when Abbas was begging first Sharon and then Olmert for peace talks and both decided to declare him irrelevant. I think that was the time when a growing number of people became more and more suspicous about Israels true intentions. And I am afraid that won't change until Israel will either agree to unconditional peace talks, or present an own, Israeli peace initiative. By the way, the genocide accusation is of course foolish, I would even call it a quite ugly thing.

between what Moses taught the Jews and what Jesus taught his followers? Please be specific. Regards.

Euro attititudes towards Israel have nothing to do with their deep concern over the palestinian people.Rather euros are afraid they will be made to pay the rpice of this conflict by Muslim extremists.They fear this conflict will drag them in somehow and that will distrurb their confortable life in europe.Since they know the Arabs are unreachable and are terrified of any conflict with Muslims(as Muslims will go all the way and the euros wont so the Muslims will win) it is easier for them to dump the whole thing on israel and save themselves from the "famous muslim rage".if the euros feared Jews more than Muslims it would be the other way around.Euros have become pathologicaly conflict adverse, which is why they ensure they will be the targets of the Muslims.

is at it again. I didn't post #112. If you see posts by me wherein I point to other world messes to detract from the issue of zionism, or one indicating I am not in support of the Pals hands down, it is a fake ballistic. Poor Barry, the village idiot has nothing better to do. Keep posting. High regards. Ballistic.

Ronnie, I have given up on trying to explain reality to you. Difficult to explain colors to a blind man, and difficult to explain reality to a person from Wonderland (even if a good person). In our world, you can tell there was an "almost" civil war if there were bloody clashes and people got killed. Have you heard such news? Perhaps the parallel in Wonderland would be that many people fell off a wall and couldn't be put together again.

Keep blogging. Regards. Ballistic.

Your 'take no prisoners' approach is refreshing! Regards. Ballistic.

of bad Israeli behavior is increasing on the blog, yessiree, it is!!! Read and enjoyed your well thought out post, yup, I did. High regards. Ballistic.

Howdy Johnboy; And we will see whose set of propaganda lies wins. I'd have to take a look at the exact wording of the IHCJ's ruling, but I doubt if it applied to the "ENTIRE West Bank" because East Jerusalem has been annexed to Israel, no court anywhere (including the IHCJ or the ICJ) has the authority to change the status of an armistice line to that of a border, and because of other IHCJ rulings concerning the path of the security barrier which imply that the Israeli settlements on the Israeli side of the fence are not under "belligerent occupation". The Gaza Strip and Areas A & B in the West Bank are not currently occupied because an occupation ends when the occupying power no longer exercises the functions of government there. Those areas are under the benighted administration of the PA. These matters have been argued by lawyers for years. It is not as simple as you try to make out and each side's case has merits and flaws. The only falsehood is that one side is right and

THE TIDE OF WORLD OPINION IS SOMETHING YOU KNOW F ALL ABOUT . WHY DO IDIOTS USE THESE TERMS ? SO WORL OPINION ALL 6 BILLION OF IT IS TURNING ?? WHY DOESNT IT DEAL WITH MUSLIM APARTHEID UNTOUCHABLES IN INDIA GENOCIDE IN DARFUR THE OCCUPATION OF TIBET CHECHYNA AND MANY OTHER ABUSES BECAUSE IT DOESNT EXIST !!!!!!!! LAB-ARSE TAKE NOTE

Agreed and agreed! I hate the idea of negotiating with terrorists but if I ruled it out I would not be practicing what I preach. The Hamas has shown no interest in negotiating with my government but then the reverse is also true so it is hard to tell what the outcome of such a meeting would be. I for one would support my government if it endeavored to engage and negotiate with Hamas and similarly I would condemn my government if they rejected a negotiation offer from Hamas. You see, it's all about facing hard realities and not hanging on to individual (or even collective) fantasies. A destruction of Paradigms: Israel will negotiate with terrorists for peace and Palestinians will renounce ROR for a country of their own. Now... How did you get your governments to act like they had some sense? (I have to brush up on my Game Theory) Take care on the Emerald Isle

china invaded tibet around the sametime as the so called palestinian naqba

We will not be outdone(will we). Another thought occurred to me and I can claim solid experience on this one as we have had years and billions wasted on "Tribunals) to find out who amongst the planners/politicians etc was taking kick backs.Might get another 5 tears delay. we have and the tribunals are only ?% there . BTW liked your appreceation of Northridges efforts. Not sure he will. Regards

Hi Das Meister, I agree with you and oppose the Chinese occupation of Tibet. Sadly, my government is mostly turning a blind eye to it. Peaace.

Hi Johnboy and Martha, I read the back-and-forth between you and Jeff Northridge. Thanks for the informative posts and clearing up the misconceptions that some posters incorrectly believe. Peace.

What I meant is twice a month. Tarmir? Its Tamir.

The Palestinians have been oppressed much longer than Tibet.But we are working on it.Thanks for the reminder.

Hi Chachmeister, No this is not fake. Firstly I think it would be helpful for further debate if you read post # 199 Reid to me and #230 my reply to Reid. "except Hamas, but they are a political party/terrorist organization." True but so was the IRA and as with Hamas they represented the majority of the opposition.They needed to be brought in to the mainstream and of course the usual naysayers screamed and would not talk to them.Last week those leaders sat down at the same table to discuss how to share power having spent 40 years and 3500 lives getting there.No preconditions were allowed.But thankfully it turned out well. The same can happen in Israel if Israeli Leaders show the courage and talk to Hamas and Iron out the differences.What is to lose. If the palestinians (after an agreement) continue their asaults on Israel then I for one will no longer support them, and Israel can take the moral high ground and gain more support than they could ever imagine. Regards

Either a state of citizens,one person,one vote or pre1967 and right of refugees. World opinion flowing slow and deep.But those guys are living in their fantasy world.Won't wake up till that tide overtakes them.

Meetings are to be held EVERY OTHER WEEK, not TWICE EACH WEEK. It's just talk, a bull session, nothing constructive.

"Genocide" ! A word that came to the Politcal Dictionary only few years ago. The first step for International Justice. A word that can play a big role to ensure that humanity entered a truly civilized and a truly human chapter in its history. With the dark clouds of the Weapons of Mass Destruction; the almost nude and bare footed Man can be protected from 'Gednocide'. Corrupt rulers can be taken to task. Rulers who escape justice can be brought to justice in the name of the Common Man. In my book, next to Nazi Germany are the Arab Rulers; for more than sixty years; who committed the ultimate mass sins of taking their people of the Land of the Fertile Crescent to the abyss. An International Code against 'Genocide' should be the Charter of Rights for the Common Man in this year of remembrance of the emancipation of Slavery. This must be the age of 'Ruling the Rulers'.

Way to go Labhras, you?ve got the hang of it, just continue the same theme. I quite liked Northridge?s ingenuity-An original fake arguement- (the predominantly Palestinian neighbourhoods of East Jerusalem which would be unsuitable for a capitol since it would be an isolated enclave and half the residents would have to be expelled to make room for government buildings, hotels, foreign embassies and the like.) According to the drift we need conclusive reports from, urban planners, civil engineers, surveyors, environmentalists, health and safety specialists before the legal experts then the politicians can discuss the status of Jerusalem. That was definitely far too advanced for me

Another coincidence, I just finished posting (Alicia) on another thread re same poll. Did that poll not also include question as to who posed greatest threat to global peace. Any way Israel,(not all of )is like the Mother watching a passing Out Parade in which her son is out of step with the rest. She exclaims,"Look all the other soldiers are out of step". Regards

THE COURT WHERE BARAK SAT AS CHIEF JUSTICE COULDNT TELL IMPARTIAL LAW FROM ARIPE MELON. FURTHER IT LIKE THE ICJ DIDNT KNOW WHERE ITS JURISDICTION BEGAN AND ENDED POLITICAL PRONOUNCEMENTS BY LEFT WING JURISTS ONLY DEGRADE THE VALUE OF JUSTICE .

women are/were steriluised people killed executed, ethnic cleansing the whole time just so the great dragon can have sovereignity which is not his! speak up for my people dont marginilise them.

I do not believe that human beings should take the lives of other human beings, you may find wars in a different perspective, but that is your problems and conscience. I do sleep very well at any time ( that's about all we are allowed to do these days, any surprise???), but I wonder for some of those who enjoy seing bad things in life. What Israel has achieved by killing some more than a THOUSAND ( 1 0 0 0 ) mostly Lebanese civilians, and left some MILLIONS CLUSTER BOMLETS behind so as to increase the no of DEATH, and from the HIZB.s side to take more than 200 Lives, mostly soldiers.? DESTRUCTIONS:- Lebanese & Israeli infrastructures, (polluted the MEDITERRANEAN Sea, even now the fishes are not safe.) If You asked the families of these DEAD relatives about wars they will tell you , whether they approve of Wars. While, safely in NEW YORK, wathing the war events on TV for a continuig 34 days, DID you enjoyed it ?. PEACE,Salam,Shalom

The Sunday Telegraph published a big article about christians Lebanese fleeing Lebanon. I suggest you go and read it.

THER ARE NO ILLEGAL AREAS IN THE TERRITORY OF THE 1922 MANDATE FOR A JEWISH HOMELAND . THE RIGHTS OF JEWISH SETTLEMENT THERE ARE EMBODIED IN US LAW . THE 1924 ANGLO- AMERICAN CONVENTION PROTECTING THOSE RIGHTS WAS RATIFIED BY CONGRESS IN 1925 THIS IS PART OF THE 1969 VIENNA CONVENTION

So brant what is nonsense and Moronic in your opinion, Any position that is opposite to yours.You read one of my posts and form an opinion. Bone up on your social skills and then come back for a civilised debate. Have a nice day.

"do you believe time works in favor of Israel so that evading negotiations and perpetuating the conflict is the most promising approach?" I think that time is giving us all a royal screwing. No one is better off since the 2000 Intifadah (except Hamas, but they are but a political party/terrorist organization. The people they are supposed to represent suffer) and the other side evading negotiations is not helpful either. Now I could delve into whos fault all this is but I believe it's more productive to think of practical solutions given the facts. "can occupation and settlements be sustained indefinitely?" God I hope not, but who the hell do you propose we turn the land over to!? Look at Southern Lebanon and Northern Gaza. Also, the turning over of land must be part of a comprehensive negotiation that includes the refugees issue. Otherwise, what's preventing the Pals of demanding ROR after the WB is theirs? Israel would have nothing left to negotiate with.

"A very reasonable Arab request" Tosefta. As reasonable as the Arabs themselves !?

"Abbas to Olmert : West Bank must be included in cease-fire"Ed.Is't the rabbit out of the hate or the blind talking to the deaf ? What a revelation! Now Abbas, is trying to dictate to the so-called PM of Israel !Isn't such a demand made to creat a de-facto influence by the 'shaky Abbas' to Israel policies and interests in the West Bank ? What right Abbas has on Israel Policy in the West Bank ? If Israel worried about a 3rd Intifatha before the 2nd Intifatha set to rest; then Israel might raise the White flag. Israel should tell Abbas striaght to his face 'Go back to your tent'. Abbas is the true face of the moderats who are no more than infiltraters and con-artists.Remember Arafat?A double face 3rd rate stage actor.The Arab countries are in serious trouble. They are the true picture of the storm now in the Middle East;Israel should wait for the storm to die down and only then Israel will see Peace in the horizon. Israel will have Peace only on the ashes of the present ME.

"" as long as Israel continues to brutalise the Palestinians People then the World will be watching"" Matter of fact is , the last BBC survey found out that majority of 32 countries (Out of nearly 200 countries .UN) polled,put Israel on TOP of the list as the most hated country.Really Israel needs to do a lot to change that image, and they should start by giving up the occupied territories, and accept the opprtunity of the SAUDI Peace Initiative. By accepting this SPI, they will be ridding themselves from all the sticky problems of the WEST BANK, GAZA, SHEBA FARMS, GOLAN, ++ the HIZBOLLA and Kassam Missiles and gain the frienships of THE Arabs+ Islamic Worlds (Some 57 countries). Lets hope sense will prevail.Peace better than Eternal CONFLICTS.

When someone writes something as moronic as Beikrich did and then has it added to with nothing but nonsense (in that case by you) why would pointing that out be insulting. One has to know something about the conflict in order to produce measured, intelligent responses. Most of yours seem to be little add-ons to others' thoughts. There's rarely an original thought (as is, sadly,the with most Israel bashers) You see, Labrhas, real understanding of this confliuct cannot possibly result in anyone accepting that all the blame lies only on one side. But that's what you do. If having that pointed out to you is "insulting" then perhaps your sensibilities are different from many others. You might want to read the major piece written by a former member of Islamic Jihad, published in today's Wall Street Journal. It is marvelously enlightening and could actually make you think. Something that would stand you in quite good stead. With wishes for only good things.....

Much too advanced for me but here is one diversionary tactic. Lets not discuss the difficult issues until we have won the war on terror and every country is a democracy.

As the net closes in on the extremists, expansionists and rejectionists , look out for the ingenious sophistry and the subtle and not so subtle filibustering techniques the refuse nicks will use. The list below contains only some of the brain teasers that will be employed; other more tried and tested filibustering techniques will come into play , every one on this talk back is invited to contribute to the list , some will no doubt do so in responding. - Let?s discuss the metaphysical concept of the right to exist and how to differentiate between acceptance of the concept and accepting the reality of existence. - Let?s determine who can claim to be a national group such claims, to be supported by documents at least 3000 years old. - Let?s discuss the philosophical and moral imperatives (separately) underlining the principle of national self determination for those groups who qualify on the basis of the above criterion. - Let?s define occupation in contrast to liberation based on historical ownership claims with no statute of limitation. - Total unambiguous agreement on each and every one of the points above, as well as other points which might arise in discussing these points, will need to be reached by all the parties to the conflict. Such an agreement will then need to be endorsed in a national referendum by all the countries in the region as well as in the member states of the quartet. The idea of course is in the meanwhile , to feverishly work/hope for a major incident/conflagration in the region/world to shift the attention away from Israel/ Palestine and remove the whole ??threat?? of peace. This has always worked before; I have a strong feeling it will not do so this time, mainly of course because of Iraq. Is it not fitting that the neo cons dreams have turned into their worst nightmare ?

are considered ILLEGAL OCCUPATIONS, and thats why the FREEDOM FIGHTERS are at it, to LIBERATE their Territories (22% of the Original) (something accepted by the international Laws). Now come up with your usual BS.

Correction "Ireland is at peace with England except during Rugby Matches wherE we reverse roles and we show no mercy.

Haaretz quote Abbas " a complete armistice was impossible as long as the IDF was targeting militants in the West Bank. " , Leftists would thus portray Abbas demand as wise,acceptable, reasonable , leftists would never translate Abbas quote as , a complete armistice is impossible as long as pals militants target Israelis and IDF in the West Bank and from Gaza . Leftists would thus with certainty portray as unwise,inacceptable,unreasonable Olmert's logic answer to Hamas new spokesman's Abbas , Haaretz quote Olmert " he would consider only this if the militant organizations refrained from firing rockets or carrying out attacks for a period of two weeks.", To make themselves (pals) crystal clear they of course threaten as Abbas's chief of staff Rafiq Al-Hussein say quote "If they go on meeting without the release of prisoners or other gestures, we ourselves will supply Hamas with the weapons it wants" Thus to leftsist disappointement "If the results fail to meet their expectations, then disappointment will ensue, and so will criticism of Abbas," , It is useless to continue leftists won't get the thread

Yeah that "Arabs and Christians" remark said it all. regards

"I probably would not be able to respond to something like that and make it printable." Why not empower yourself and give it a try. Come On we are all curious.

you let china oppress the tibetans with forced sterilisations,expulsions,ethnic cleansing yet you care more about arabs who are not next door to india why?help free my people first they are in more distress

Based on your own arguments you cannot deny that Israels policy has to change to avoid further isolation and rising anti-Semitism. Honestly: do you believe time works in favour of Israel so that evading negotiations and perpetuating the conflict is the most promising approach? Looking at history, also your own, can occupation and settlements be sustained indefinitely? Has any nation or organisation ever succeeded with such a policy?

Abbas will be long gone as will the palestinians but there will always be Jews and the State of Israel. This is a fact and you better get used to it. Sitting in Ireland and not knowing the facts is indeed pathetic...don`t you have other things to concern yourself with..England comes to mind. Yes and there are still white south africans in south africa, your point is?

Thanks for your post. Correct I am not for ethnic cleansing of any sort and I suspect the "Foaming at the Mouth" (Your description )is usually reserved for those on the opposite side who are in fact calling for ehtnic cleansing of Palestinians. Where I sit is the Following. 1. A recognition by Israel that it is largely responsible for the plight of the Palestinian People. That is step one to resolving the problem. Any ongoing attempts to deny the numerous forced expulsions are simply counter productive. 2. A reasonable settlement of the Refugee problem ,probably a mixture of return of some refugees and compensation of the rest. 3. Creation of a viable and contiguous State for the Palestinians. Your statement on patting certain posters backs is far too general for me to respond but if they fit in my above genda then they wont have this "Pat" on their back. Regards.

"Actually, Israel doesn`t want the Gaza Strip nor Areas A & B in the West Bank where 95% of the hostile Palestinians live." either a secular society, one vote for everyone, or 67 boarders and return of refugees, personally I think you should go for the Geneva Agreement, it makes more sense. Apartied South Africa lasted twice as long as you have and had ten times the military supremacy, study why they fell and maybe you wont. But beware the tide of world opinion as it flows slowly and very deeply.

Cipora, Please forget about this blood libel thing, no reasonble person on the planet earth will believe into the protocol BS. In the best (or rather worst) case, there are 5 % of the Swiss population both on the extreme right and left of the political spectrum who believe in such a tosh. But if you have a number of 50 % then it goes deep into the "mainstream", who usually makes his assessments based on the political facts on the ground and not on crazy conspiracy theories. No, make no mistake, the Israeli political establishment has a (very) big responsability for those numbers. You bet, if one would have asked the same question in the beginning of Oslo or during Camp David 2000, there wouldn't have been more than 10 % answering with yes. Have no doubt about that.

How can both of us think of Peace if we do resemble each other so much,by the fact, that any article as light as it can be in treating a very complex matter, would raise in us the passion and hatred filled in both hearts to express racism towards the other. I think that unfortunately we will always be far from peace, and always remember that we do have the same behavioural patterns because we are from the same old world, from the same old blood.

We are under Grace not Law means: We are no longer subject to the law of Moses but to the teaching of Jesus.

Abu, I forgot to ask you this question. Which side did you support during the Israel/Hazbollah war? Just curious!!!!

Judging from your comment it means that you would prefer a one state solution. And sometimes I really wonder why when there is so much hatred and anger between the two people. Is it because when the pals are given the right of return ,the Jews will become the minority and you would become the majority and hence you will become the "first class "and the Jews the "second class" citizen. Abu, do you really believe there is equality between the majority and the minority? Do not believe the lies of the world ,the truth is the majority always have a bigger share of everthing.That's life all over and if ever someone tells you otherwise they are just lying!!!! I hope you are happy as you said you are. Good Day

Haven,t you heard, Ireland is at peace with Ireland and as long as Israel continues to btutalise the Palestinian People then the world will be watching. oss

Whatever does that mean? That you can do as you please when you get ready and as you see fit? I don't believe that and neither should you! Regards.

I read your post and honestly I cannot understand how you can be so proud to be palestinian but then again there is no accounting for taste. How can someone be proud to be part of a group of people who live in a cesspool of terrorists and homicide bombers? How can someone be proud to be part of a people who tear apart the bodies of Israeli soldiers and run wild with their intestines. These facts boggle the mind..but then again you live in Jerusalem,Israel and not with the savages in Gaza. Are you aware of what your arab brothers are doing to their fellow Christians? Are you aware that they are slowly cleansing their lands of them? Ask the Coptic Christians in Egypt or the Assyerians in Iraq and you will get an earful...but you Elias are proud to be an arab...There lies the problem you don't even know who the true enemy is do you?

I am talking about facts: namely, 50% of the Swiss believe in blood libels. The belief that Israel is ready to commit genocide is nothing but a blood libel in line with the Protocols. Actually, it is quite apalling that in 2007 among educated Europeans such horrific beliefs can be spread. History books have proven that such ignorant beliefs lead to catastrophies. Where this propaganda originates, and why, is for the Swiss to figure out. Make no mistake, it is not only a threat to Israel or to Jews.

I have absolutely no reason to have a "victimhood complex"...because I do not consider myself a victim. I leave that whining and crying to the palestinians. In between their terror attacks and lying they love to play the victim...actually they are outstanding in this aspect...they have it down to an art. The fact that they lie makes it all the more interesting. As for Art Bell he is an enthusiastic believer in space ships etc....if you know so much about this subject how come you do not know about Art? And if aliens ever landed on Mother Earth I am sure they would first visit Israel because that is where all of the great minds are...helping to create cures for diseases so that you and your hater friends can live long healthy lives. Since you consider me a moron I would appreciate it if you did not post to me again...I do not have time for the likes of you.

Abbas will be long gone as will the palestinians but there will always be Jews and the State of Israel. This is a fact and you better get used to it. Sitting in Ireland and not knowing the facts is indeed pathetic...don't you have other things to concern yourself with..England comes to mind.

Given that the Palestinians never cease firing during a declared cease fire, this whole discussion is rather superfluous isn't it?

in all your endeavors, by the way... not only in trying to help the blind see... with my best regards.

Cipora, No intimidation, just the (very) sad facts. You can keep on putting your head into the sand, but I am afraid the history books are usually not merciful with ignorant people. Maybe you also wanna read my responses to Tosefta and real Swiss....

JN: "Your entire argument depends on the meaning of the word "occupied", but if some or all of the Palestinian Territories are considered to be "disputed", then your argument falls flat." And, vice versa, so does yours if there is no "disputing" the occupied status of the West Bank. Go read the Israel High Court of Justice ruling on "Ben Sourik", 2004. Read Par1 and Par23. The ENTIRE West Bank is under "belligerent occupation", and the IHCJ, the Israeli government and the IDF commander in the West Bank all accepted that as an incontestable statement of fact. JN: "Actually, Israel doesn`t want the Gaza Strip nor Areas A & B in the West Bank where 95% of the hostile Palestinians live" Matters not a whit. The Pals have limited authority in those areas of the West Bank, and that does not affect the IDF's role as the Occupying Power. An OP can work thru the local authorities - that is the entire POINT of installing Quisling Govts - but it is still the OP.

Arabs and Christians? You mean to tell me Christians can't be Arabs? Or Arabs can't be Christian? Or all Arabs are Muslim? Let me explain something to you. We Palestinian Christians are Arab and at the same time Christian. In fact my bloodline is closer to Christ than most Christians. In other words, I am ultra proud of being Christian, and thankful to God I am a Palestinian Arab. Get the point? Or did this one go over your head also?

Let him continue with the wall. As if he believes this will suffocate the Palestinians, which it does, however does he really think the Palestinians, are going to call it quits, move to Jordan, U.S.A., etc? Olmert's got another thing coming. The demographic bomb is bigger than any nuclear weapon Israel has. Maybe when you find an Israeli leader with a true "genuine offer", UNLIKE BARAK'S fraudulent offer, maybe then there will be peace. Otherwise, I soon see the 2 state solution resting in peace, and the path to 1 state, equal rights for Jews and Arabs being the possible solution. Bravo Olmert!

which included these lines, which were further clarified in 1939(see my last post or "the british white paper of 1939"), was "the palestine mandate" in which the allied powers of WWI entrusted britain with the administration of palestine. ie: palestine became a british mandate. it was NOT a declaration of statehood for israel. there are 28 articles in addition to the preamble; which assigns britain with the administration of palestine. and the 28 articles are guidelines for the british in carrying out that administration.