Abbas: Olmert offered PA land equaling 100% of West Bank

I've reviewed the map and I don't like it: Firstly, the majority of land going to the Palestinians appears to be in the Judean desert. This is not a fair swap. Secondly Israel gains land which extends into the West Bank as deep fingers: TOTALLY indefensible from a military point of view !

Dear Sam Soul: Hahaha, retunr to Moldavia ? hahaha ! By the way, YOU are not perhaps suggesting the Palestinians commit a grave breach of the Geneva Comventions by "returning the Jews" to Moldavia, Russia and so on AGAINST the will of those Jews ? Do you IGNORE that you are inciting to Refoulement, a grave breach of international law ? Hahaha !

You imply the Palestinian lost an opportunity. If you do, you once more prove you have no idea what you are talking about. It is a chronic condition. Abbas was prepared to accept the OImert offer. In 2009, Mr Olmert offered generously to Mahmoud Abbas and it was the best offer Abbas or Arafat had ever been proffered. He did not offer return of Palestinian refugees to Israel, but he proposed a real breakthrough. The myth is that Abbas rejected the offer. In fact, Abbas said, "with that offer we can have peace in 2 days." The Palestinians were ecstatic and so was the EU. The Quartet agreed, and requested that Israel make the offer binding. It never did. And that was the end of it.

If the Israelis really wanted peace they would never have continued settlements after 1967. They have proven over and over since then that they are not interested in peace, but only more land, water and the purification of the Jews to salve their delusion that god has given them something. They continue to try to rewrite history to their satisfaction, but the world knows better.

In response to someone wondering whether the fact that Israel has 1.4 million Palestinians who are Israeli citizens means that the PA should accept 1 million settlers (Bradley Burstons article on Hanania's peace plan) you replied and I quote: "you seem to forget 1.4 million Palestinians are Israel citizens" No they aren`t. They`re Israeli Arabs. So if they are Israelis then the land being offered in the swap must be Israeli land, just as the land of the kibbuzim is. But here you claim that it's obscene that Israel is offering to swap Palestinian land for other Palestinian land. If in your opinion, the land being offered is Palestinian, then it must be by virture of the fact that it's residents are indeed, be Palestinian. You can't have it both ways.

You imply the Palestinian lost an opportunity. If you do, you once more prove you have no idea what you are talking about. It is a chronic condition. Abbas was prepared to accept the OImert offer. In 2009, Mr Olmert offered generously to Mahmoud Abbas and it was the best offer Abbas or Arafat had ever been proffered. He did not offer return of Palestinian refugees to Israel, but he proposed a real breakthrough. The myth is that Abbas rejected the offer. In fact, Abbas said,"with that offer we can have peace in 2 days." The Palestinians were ecstatic and so was the EU. The Quartet agreed, and requested Israel make the offer binding. It never did. And that was the end of it.

The territory that Olmert was insisting upon lay atop the West Bank aquifer, and in exchange he offered territory next to the Gaza Strip (marginal, at best) and in the Judean Desert (hello! D.e.s.e.r.t.). Look at that map, and ponder that for 42 years the mantra, the mantra, the mantra of Israel has been that it must have "defensible borders". Yet there is KEDUMIM, and ARIEL, and MA'ALEH ADUMIM, and EFRAT, and all of them sticking their arses out into "Palestine", just waiting for a swift kick up the Khyber. If there were ever a shooting war against a competent army then those cities - all of 'em - would be regarded as completely indefensible. It really is nauseating to see the gulf between what zionists *say* they want and what they really *do* want. The duplicity and the dishonesty is, really, quite breathtaking.

The offer of swapping Palestinian land in the West Bank for some other Palestinian land which was outside of Israel's newly declared Sovereign boundaries in 1948.

The current government has a different offer. Abbas and his Palestinians get nothing.

I am afraid that Israel has long since bargained away the one asset a modern nation needs, its credibility. Clearly a square foot here and a square foot there are not the same thing and there is absolutely no way anyone would believe israel would offer equal value for what they have stolen. The nation is not capable of doing that and the world knows it. Camp David was a good example. Israel likes to claim it offered the Palestinians the world and they didn't accept it, but the truth is far different. They offered a chopped up series of cells with no lungs for a nation to breathe.

To those gloating, Abbas didn't reply. He hasn't rejected anything yet. And if he says, "YES" then Netanyahu as the opportunity to go to elections or accept the deal or he can reject the peace offered by the Israeli government and prove forever that he truly is 'Mr. No Peace, Never.'

Avi if you say Judea what do you mean? Didn?t the ancient Hebrew people live in 2 divided kingdoms for most of their time following their invasion of land inhabited by Canaanites i.e the kingdom of Judea (capital Jerusalem) and the kingdom of Israel (capital Samaria). And what do you mean by ?Arabia?. Are you saying that Egyptians who would also consider themselves as Arab should be forced to return to historic Arabia a place where they may not have had any historic connection for hundreds of years (or even ever)? What about Jews who live in Milwaukee are you saying that they don?t belong in America? Avi when does our talk of nationality become exclusivist, xenophobic and racist? When do the words we say equate with the worst spoken by AlQaeda, Hamas or Kahane? Our collective future relies on embrace of the stranger rather than to tar people all with the same brush and treat them with contempt, suspicion and as an enemy.

We grew wheat, cotton, peanuts, potatoes, organic oranges and mangos in that 'arid wilderness', and lived very nicely off of agriculture alone.

This is the most revealing statement of the whole article. The plan is clear for everyone to see. Talk about accepting a plan that if ever accepted would do nothing, zero, to the demographic balance inside Isreal. But take as much land as possible. The real threat is not Iran or Hamas. The real threat is the demographic issue. Deal with that and the Palestinians will change their tune.

when it comes to rejecting peace offers the Palestinians are numero uno!

I wondered how Gaza and West Bank could be kept together. The map clearly outlines a corridor between both. I do not know enough about the aridability of the land for farming but according to the story the Palestinians would be getting wonderful farming land. The map seems to be a fair give and take solution. i would hope it can be re-offered again to some decent palestinian leadership willing to care for their people.

Natalie, you are a bright woman. I have never seen your outline for an Israeli-Palestiinian peace plan. Please set it out and address your vision: 1. Borders 2. Jerusalem 3. Arab refugees 4. Jewish refugees from Arab countries

territory for some other Palestinian territory, is not a swap.

It's funny how all Israeli offers are generous offers. Those Israelis sure must be some generous guys.

expelled from everywhere except Israel. "Sam Soul- Jews belong in Judea Arabs belong in Arabia."Avi Is that not what you are advocating. You might want to reconsider your approach.

Almost all countries in the world, as well as the UnitedNations, Amnesty International,the Red Cross.Human Rights Watch,even Isreali human rights organizations, agree that settlements are a major obstacle to peace, yet that these colonies continue to grow and expand on the palestinian land.The UN,and whith it the entire community of nations has clearly denounced settlements as illegal. Settlers and their presence in the occupied territory are the FUEL for the coming FIRE.They have become GREEDIER..

Harping on Olmert's plan is harping on crap. The Land of Israel is not for sale or horse trading. GOD gave and restored the Land of Israel to the Jews as a fulfillment of His Covenant to Israel. GOD did not restore the Land of Israel to the Jews for them to give any part of it to the Pagans. The Land of Israel is for the Childen of Israel!

and a bit more freedom? Nelson Mandella Just something to think about for those who say Abbas should have accepted a proposal where the Palestinians would have to give up their rights to equality, and the rights of tens of thousands of their former neighbours in exchange for getting what is rightfully theirs.

Abbas did not accept the offer. He would have had new PA land adjacent to Gaza to use for his "police" to take control of Gaza. He refused. And has nothing. But whines & complains. As usual. he reuses to have Jews in "Palestine" and refuses to take 'Israeli Arabs'/ yawn

Arabs belong in Arabia. But the Arabs think that the world belongs to them. Islam says so. They're wrong.

wisdom in negotiating ? which deal have the arabs ever said yes to nuttie ? the deal gets further anbd further away till it disappears altogether ! only the boneheads in the white house think you can keep the dead cat alive !

Olmert also offered the Jerusalem Arab neighbourhoods and offered to take in a small number of refugees. He was rejected on these too. Jews aren't going to wait around long to settle biblical Israel knowing they are nowhere near agreement with Fatah let alone Hamas. While some far-leftist Jews may be willing forever to indulge the Palestinians and their supporters,as Haaretz does,most will not.Either Palestinians have an acceptable deal or Jews will simply move on with their lives. After the Holocaust, Jews pay limited attention to the bleating of their critics.

Hasbara's working big time...on US citizens and yourself !! amazing !

The jewish people has an evident existential problem. Palestinians know where they belong. That's the major difference between you and them. Palestinians resist (and do not make war) in order not to disapear. And it seems that's exactly what Israel is working hard on...

What this article does not provide is information about the kibbutzim and moshavim near Gaza which would have given their fields away. I assume that Olmert had discussed this with them and received their agreement. This would be an extremely important information to convey to the public, not only international but also to the Israeli public.

No in 1947; three no's in 1967; no again in 1973, and in 1998 and 2000. And now you cry because you said not again to 100% in 2008? Give it a rest. From someone who has believed against reason for many years that, if only we ait out the mufti, or Arafat that then, with a leader asserting a true desire for a state alongside and cooperating with its Jewish neighbor, then there would finally be peace. Abbas was the dove of Oslo; but obviously not even the dove ascendent has sufficient courage and wisdom to accept a Palestinian state adjoining a Jewish one. Nor is the problem for Israel merely local. The Saudis are engaged in the opening round of war with Iran, sandwiched between Yemen in the south and Shiite Iraq everywhere else. And still they would rather die dreaming of US salvation, than allie with Israel against the common enemy. The problem is Arab rejection of the idea of a Jewish state in the ME. Better to lose to the Shiites than win with the Jews.

The Palestinian position is absurd and based only on hurting Israel. On the one hand they want all of Israel, but on the other hand they won't take any part of Israel with Israeli Arabs in it?

"This proposal is absolutely laughable" Of course. You'd rather be serious and have zero percent of all the territory instead of 97% of it.

No party with documented intention to destroy the existing state will be granted any new sovereignty in the vicinity of the stated goal of their aggression. No demagoguery of hateful Arabs and their criminal European supporters would make it possible. Any attempt to destroy Israel will be met with response far beyond the imagination of the primitive enemy.

not a legitimate claim to govern. They were never a national people until the Islamic world realized that they would have to fabricate a national claim, cut from a sow's ear, in order to ward off the Jews who do have a historic and national claim. Jews were their for thousands of years before Pals, were occupied and then disbursed throughout the world, though at all times there were at least a small population of Jews in the region. Why should Arabs get the benefit of their violent, military conquest, especially given how much of the world they have imperilized under threat of death, a threat that was followed through for ions.

For the Arabs, no Israel within ANY borders can exist. This is why they keep choosing war over a state in peace.

Olmert could have offered them the entirety of Israel, Abbas would have declined. They don't want a state, they want to exterminate you.

Anything Olmert offered or proposed is no longer relevant.

This proposal is absolutely laughable. A hundred kilometers of desert in exchange for the most fertile land in the West Bank where these settlement blocs are situated and where 80 to 90 percent of the aquifers lie. Why would anybody even consider an agreement like that? Unless you're in the mindset of take whatever you can get. The Native Americans of the U.S. can tell you all about that.

arid lands? Israel is offering land in the gallile, the most fertile lands on the region!!! about jerusalem, neither the pals have legal claim for her

For Palestinian Israelis to join a Palestinian state they wouldn't have to move an inch, or give up property. The only thing that would move would be the border. So "moving people around like chess pieces" is a ridiculous statement. The point is another one: Palestinian Israelis may wave Palestinian flags in protest against their state (Israel), but they would pick democratic Israel anytime over the corrupt PA regime from Tunis. Abbas knows this and doesn't want to loose their support. The other reason is that he is betting on demography, which unfortunately shows that he is not interested in two states for two peoples, but in two states for one people. Because, if you believe that this is one country, but it must be divided to create 2 states for 2 peoples, why not dividing it more or less along logical ethnic lines without moving anyone (except some settlers)?

indeed you never miss an opportunity to intervene cleverely...! Any questions on palestinians by the way ?

i think you're mistaken. Palestinians belong to this land. Israelis are new comers. At this rate they may have to return where they belong (i.e US, Modavlia, Russia, and the rest of the world).

Why do you say that? You make it sound like Israel is dictating the terms. You seem to think Israel is in a position to say what can and cannot be in Palestine and that the Pals must gratefully bow and touch their forelocks. Israeli hubris never fails to amaze. It is stolen land, Israel does not have any legal right to be on it or to be bartering over the illegal settlements it built there. One doesn't normally get into a dutch auction with the thief, where he demands the right to keep half of what he stole. Olmert's map is just an Israeli try-on. It leaves out E J'sem. No one - Arab, EU, USA, UN - is going to buy that. It has long Israeli tentacles of land cutting up Palestine to get Ariel, Ma'aleh Adumim, Kedumim etc, these are never going to be accepted either. And why would the Pals want 150 sq km of arid Wilderness? Israel was being too greedy and tricky by half.

My friend, before move people between countries like pieces on a chess board, check out these facts. You can't move Israeli Arabs like catle, there are many who own property and lived where they are for longer than 61 years. They are legal citizens of Israel As for Jordan and citizenship of Palestinians inside of Jordan, they were never citizens...they were always classified as refuges..some for 40 years and others even longer. Jordan doesn't want them.

The successful negotiations between PM Olmert and President Abbas only proves that an arrangement for coexistence is absolutely possible. For any skeptics who suggest that neither side will accept an agreement where two states are side by side, this only proves the opposite. It just indicates when there are leaderships who are realistic about both peoples living in dignity once and for all in the region, then working out the details is possible. The revelation of this map is encouraging that both the Israelis and Palestinians will one day reach final status agreement.

This entire charade is being carried out as part of the mistaken belief that Fatah supports the two-state solution. They don't. Abbas may be saying some placating things to the press, but Fatah held it's congress in Bethlehem and reiterated that it does NOT support peace with Israel: http://www.e-fateh.org/paper_full_3.aspx Article (12) - total liberation of Palestine and the liquidation of the Zionist state economically and politically, militarily and culturally. Article (13) - the establishment of independent democratic Palestinian state with full sovereignty over all Palestinian territories [no two state solution anywhere in the goals of Fatah]

that fool left the door open for another disaster for his people.

There are many light years between the things that an Israeli politician says regarding peace and the things that he does. Normally Israeli peace talk is meant to placate America and the EU. Notice that the settlement expansion never stops, even when a freeze is supposedly in place. In Israel, more than any other place in the world, action speaks louder than words. The international community knows Israels tricks by not, but they are not motivated to address it.

At this rate, they may have to go live in Jordan

Never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

They want a right of return than thats fine lets return the Israeli arabs to the palestinian state and reduce Israels arab population. Its also well known that Olmert was talking about transfering Israeli arabs to the palestinians state .. thats one thing that was no secret at the time. Jordan is taking away citizenship from palestinians because they want them to become citizens of the palestinian entity instead so Israel can take away citizenship of its own arab poulation and let them become citizens of the arab entity. If Jordan can do it why not Israel?