Abbas: IDF operations prevent progress in peace talks

DT: "Notice he continues to ignore what A24 says," Art 28: "The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations." DT #474:"He completely refuses to acknowledge my clear statements about minimizing damage to non-combatants" DT #436:"Terrorists using non-combatants as cover aren`t protected by the GC, neither are the non-combatants." Note the change of song; David earlier claimed that Art 28 said that civilians LOSE their protection when they are found on or near a military objective. Now he claims he made "clear statements" to the contrary. It is not enough to say you are "MINIMIZING damage" to civilians, David: you can not target them at all. You can't shoot THRU a human shield to kill the terrorist behind them, then say "well, that was only ONE civilian". You can ONLY target the combatant, because ONLY then can you honestly claim that any civilian death was purely collateral damage to your fire.

Notice he continues to ignore what A24 says, that combatants may still fire at other combatants even knowing that civilians may be killed if those civilians are being used as shields. He completely refuses to acknowledge my clear (to any knowledgeable English speaker) statements about minimizing damage to non-combatants while also refusing to address Arabs intentionally targeting civilians. JB invents that I'm arguing the civilians can be attacked directly while refusing to condemn it himself.. He's creating another of his mystical straw horses, even though he has know clue about what a horse looks like. Why does he keep it up? His beliefs are contradictory to reality, and he'd have nothing to hold onto if he admitted what a beggar he really is.

Notice he continues to ignore what A24 says, that combatants may still fire at other combatants even knowing that civilians may be killed if those civilians are being used as shields. He completely refuses to acknowledge my clear statements about minimizing damage to non-combatants while also refusing to address Arabs intentionally targeting civilians. JB invents that I'm arguing the civilians can be attacked directly while refusing to condemn it himself..

DT, quoting Article 28: "the presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations" Here is David ACTUALLY QUOTING the words that say that a civilian who finds themselves in or near a military operation is STILL a "protected person" and, therefore, immune from being targetted by combatants - and he insists that proves that the IDF can, indeed, target the civilians. Here is David ACTUALLY QUOTING the words that show that *while* the MILITARY OBJECTIVE can be still be targetted by the combatants despite the presence of civilians, the civilians themselves can not - and he STILL insists that this proves the IDF can, indeed, target the civilians. YOU CAN'T TARGET CIVILIANS, David. It is illegal. YOU CAN STILL TARGET THE MILITARY OBJECTS OR AREAS, David, but you can not, and must not, target the civilians. Unless, of course, it is the IDF doing the targetting, and you are viewing from Teichworld. Then it's OK.

"when they DO NOT HAVE A POSITIVE ID", nope, you've repeated said that the IDF has regular policies to shoot first, regardless. The sudden addition of "w/o ID" is another sad try to context switch. Sad, because it's also wrong. No army has a legal requirement to fire only w/positive ID. It must make best effort, and information released, and even covered in Haaretz, shows that the IDF tried. "precisely because they *never* *intended*", now look at this funny bit. JB's just claimed that the only time the IDF "intends" to shoot is when it shoots. Oy vey. He's addicted to using the phrase "straw man", however, unlike the one in the Wizard of Oz, he still hasn't found a brain.

Yet again, puppy excises words to ignore context, one of his main ways of denial. All he can quote is "protected", while ignoring "the presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations". Parties attacking such points are responsible to "minimize" damage to such civilians, and int'l law has accepted that though JB ignores it. That means the law accepts losses of said persons. The meaning? They no longer have the same protection as they would away from such points, where the law says they must not be put at risk. He has to deny. How else can he never excoriate Arabs for directly attacking civilians while claiming Israel's legal response during the use of shields is somehow illegal? Then the puppy is confused, not seeming to understand that ANY "straw man" is an analogy. Poor, sad thing. I keep telling him to study English, but his Imam won't let him.

Never thought I'd admit *that*, but your behaviour is becoming...demeaning. DT: "Note how:" "1) I address his straw man, destroy it, destroy his analogy and he whines" I MADE NO ANALOGY, so the only way you can "destroy" it is inside your own little head. Your Self Delusion Writ Large....and there for everyone to see. DT: "2) He makes a statement, I directly address it, and he claims that I`m making a straw man and shouldn`t." No, David, you did not. My statement referred to the tactic of the IDF shooting at a target when they DO NOT HAVE A POSITIVE ID. And that happens whenever the IDF fully *intends* to shoot at someone, and decides that it will shoot at anyone who approaches that area or an object, positive ID *or* *not*. Pointing to thousands of other occasions when the IDF *didn't* shoot and *didn't* kill precisely because they *never* *intended* to shoot Anything at Anybody is a NOT an analogous scenario. IT IS A STRAW MAN.

DT: "As for his waffles on proportionality, notice his non-answers:" DT:"1) Claims there`s said law but provides no references" It is Customary Int'l Law, David, which is why it is written into every CIVILIZED Military Manual, and that is why it is Customary Int'l Law. That's how Customary Law works. DT: "2) Says he, by fiat, is limiting it to tactical and that strategic must not be considered;" I'll try AGAIN: Proportionality is ONE of the TWO components of "Military Necessity", and that is used for TARGET SELECTION. And that is a TACTICAL decision, not a STRATEGIC decision. "3) Still doesn`t explain what a proportional response is to thousands of rockets aimed at civilians last summer" The correct, proportional response that would allow the propery degree of distinction would be to OVERRUN THE LAUNCH SITES WITH TROOPS.

DT: "They are not protected from attack by the GC. That is accurate." No. Article 28 clearly says TWO things: 1) The MILITARY OBJECTIVE is not protected from attack because of the presence of civilians 2) Those civilians are still entitled to protection from attack - clearly so, because the Article 28 DESCRIBES THEM AS PROTECTED PERSONS. Even with your "new, improved" wording you are still allowing the combatant to target the non-combatant. And it just keeps getting worse: DT: "As long as the attackers made best efforts to minimize civilian casualties" The Principle of Proportionality - the very principle that David denies exists in post #457!!!! DT: ", they may attack the opponents using shields" They can still attack the MILTIARY OBJECTIVE, but THEY MUST NOT ATTACK THE CIVILIANS! DT: "However, in the case of shields, the GC exempts the shields" And here is David claiming that the IDF CAN ATTACK THE CIVILIANS! Article 28 does not "exempt the shields"!!!!

You may ask, "Does it get old being so constantly right about JB?" The answer is "yes, but it needs to be done."

He boasts about his "straw man" in 461 and then, in 463, he excoriates me for "another straw man". He repeatedly says we "SHOOT first and THEN examine the body" and then says the massive number of arrests disproving that is a straw horse. Note how: 1) I address his straw man, destroy it, destroy his analogy and he whines 2) He makes a statement, I directly address it, and he claims that I'm making a straw man and shouldn't. Note the one thing in common: JB's whining that facts get in the way of his hate filled fantasies. Thousands of attacks upon Israeli civilians, 1/3 of Sderot children with full-blown PTSD, daily attacks, and JB thinks it's not-proportional to attack people approaching the launchers. He even lies about the IDF, which has clearly stated that terrorists do wish to recover launchers. Then he ignores his article itself, pointing to a 14-year old firing an RPG to support Levy's claim that all children are innocent. He doesn't change. Hate remains his succor.

As for his waffles on proportionality, notice his non-answers: 1) Claims there's said law but provides no references 2) Says he, by fiat, is limiting it to tactical and that strategic must not be considered; even, by context, claiming that "military necessity" is only tactical in nature 3) Still doesn't explain what a proportional response is to thousands of rockets aimed at civilians last summer Even by his own waffling, Israel felt that pushing Hizbullah back and destroying rockets and launchers in order to better protect Israeli civilians was of greater benefit than not doing so. He also ignores that the IDF caused many IDF deaths by minimizing enemy casualties through assault rather than carpet bombing.

Again, all I can do is tell you to STUDY ENGLISH if you really think you're making a bout about GC protection. You're so sad that if you weren't a foaming antisemite I'd pity you. Yes, I did forget to address the clause, but I'm still right. They are not protected from attack by the GC. That is accurate. As long as the attackers made best efforts to minimize civilian casualties, they may attack the opponents using shields -- even knowing for certain that some of the shields will die. The GC says that civilians may not be attacked. However, in the case of shields, the GC exempts the shields from that absolute protection because they are shields. "logical consequences" another concept JB misses. You admit, puppy that you used a straw man to make an analogy to what Israel does. I then attack both the straw man and the analogy and you claim I can't do that. How sad. As for the flechettes, you also keep proving my point w/o comprehending that. Thanx again.

DT: " 'SHOOT first and THEN examine the body' continuing to ignore the thousands of Pals arrested w/o shots." Yet another straw man constructed by David Teich. Because *I* am not arguing that Israel has adopted a general policy of genocide, nor a generalized "take no prisoner" policy throughout the length and breadth of the occupied territories. That is David's make-believe claim that he is attempting to pin on me. A claim of his own construction. A straw man. I am claiming that on the issue of QASSAMs Israel has completely lost the plot - quite literally, has lost all sense of proportion - by adopting AS POLICY the idea that anyone who approaches a discarded qassam launcher (a militarily useless item, as the IDF itself admits) IS TO BE KILLED. I'll point you here, David: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/899694.html though I am certain you have no time for Levy. A pity, because Levy is an Israeli who THINKS, rather than one who simply RATIONALIZES.

DT: "'Principle of Proportionality.' Of course, there is no such generally accepted principle. As I`ve asked him before: What`s a proportional response to 60 years of war to destroy a sovereign nation?" That David has to ask a question loaded with STATEGIC considerations when attempting to poo-poo a principle governing the TACTICAL use of force is revealing in itself. That David denies that there even *is* a Principle of Proportionality is an astonishing declaration of ignorance. The doctrine is called "Military necessity", David. It is founded on two principles: 1) Distinction: Do I really know I am shooting at something that I am allowed to shoot at? 2) Proportionality: Even if I have satisfied myself of (1), do I really know that the military benefits of shooting at it is greater than the likely cost to the non-combatants that may be nearby? Get an education, David, before you make yourself look even more of a fool than you currently do...

DT: "Note I`m pointing out that he keeps changing which type of shell was used depending on to whom he`s talking." And *I* keeping pointing out that you are talking rubbish: The flechette round is a 105mm round when it is fired WITHOUT a sabot as, indeed, it would be if fired from a Merkava Mark 1 tank. The very same flechette round is a 120mm round when it is fired WITH a sabot as, indeed, it would be if fired from a Merkava Mark 4 tank. It is the same round - the IDF only *has* the one type of flechette round - and it can be fited into either a 105mm or a 120mm chamber, depending on wether a sabot is used or not. Just How Many Times MUST I Explain This To You????????????? It's like knocking on a very hard block of wood!!

DT: "I pointed out that the terrorists don`t gain protection by using non-combatants as shields. JB`s claiming I`m saying non-combatants lose their protected status." I'll quote you again, David, and this time I'll use emphasis to point out exactly were you DID claim exactly that: DT: "Terrorists using non-combatants as cover aren`t protected by the GC, NEITHER ARE THE NON-COMBATANTS." You said it, David, in black and white. DT: "He then jumps over my direct address of his using Beslan, as if I hadn`t responded, then gets confused when I accurately use "analogy", which he`d just screwed up." *sigh* I'll explain it AGAIN: It is a straw man because the POINT of my exercise was to examine the logical consequences of YOUR claim that protected persons in a scene of combat lose their protected status. My POINT WAS NOT to draw an analogy between the behaviour of the Chechyans and the IDF, and therefore your attempt to refute any such analogy IS A STRAW MAN.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/894494.html http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/894317.html http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/893868.html http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/889705.html http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/889633.html http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/889468.html Now notice one of the two tactics JB will use: 1) Completely ignore this message and act as if he's never fled facts. 2) Point to the one or two that were a few days while ignoring others that were the same day or the next day, selectively whining to fake a point. Which will it be? Lets watch and wait.

1) Ask the Haaretz censors. It's only been two days and I'm still trying to get through them. 2) I've listed massive numbers of threads you've run from, but two days and you're crowing? "just playing tag". 1) That came out after Israel investigated. It's additional info, puppy, which wasn't there to start with. 2) Haaretz keeps censoring my link to at Washington Post article saying the family blames Islamic Jihad and a JPost article saying the arial reconnaissance used didn't distinguish age, just people approaching the launchers. Why? Because they agree with you that context should be avoided in order to prove a biased point. That they were playing tag in now way obviates that: 1) Israel tried to ID them 2) Had a right to fire 3) Civilians sometimes dies in conflict zones It also doesn't obviate that Pals directly attack civilians as a strategy and that you won't demand they halt.

"DT: 2) Not decided if they were hit by `flechettes` or `120mm`." Note I'm pointing out that he keeps changing which type of shell was used depending on to whom he's talking. His response? "Just how many different types of shells...", admitting there's more than one yet still not admitting his own confusion and lack of consistency. That he can't differentiate between a shell necessary to snugly fit a round into the barrel and the actual round fired is another example of language confusion. Then he keeps confusing "shells" with "rounds" while trying to sound like a military expert. "Principle of Proportionality." Of course, there is no such generally accepted principle. As I've asked him before: What's a proportional response to 60 years of war to destroy a sovereign nation? I keep telling him he needs to leave the madras and take courses in English and logic. Sadly, he ignores that and just keeps posting nonsense.

JB: "DT: "Terrorists using non-combatants as cover aren`t protected by the GC, neither are the non-combatants.'" Now notice JB the madras trained puppy's problem. I pointed out that the terrorists don't gain protection by using non-combatants as shields. JB's claiming I'm saying non-combatants lose their protected status. Again, that's what you get with a poor ESL class. "STRAW MAN ALERT!!" Notice I've just quoted him, and he ignorantly admits he's used a straw man. He then jumps over my direct address of his using Beslan, as if I hadn't responded, then gets confused when I accurately use "analogy", which he'd just screwed up. "OBLIGED to attempt", yes, and reports show they did. In one case, they've admitted they got it wrong, but, as JB states and then ignores, they "attempted". "SHOOT first and THEN examine the body" continuing to ignore the thousands of Pals arrested w/o shots. "a tank" proves a Merkava? Gosh, Israel has only 1 type of tank. News alert!

Where have you gone, sonny? Gone away to mull this comment, perhaps: DT: "JB has yet to show the children were civilians or that Israel does not have a right to attack people approaching military targets. However, he claims his belief is true, without proof." now that he has been confronted with this headline: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/899414.html "IDF: Three children killed in Gaza Tuesday were just playing tag" But...nooooooo... that can't be the case, can it? Only Johnboy runs, and *he* runs from the magnificance of the Teichster's superior intellect and insight. It simply Does Not Work The Other Way!!!! Pathetic. Where has that little black pot gone, I wonder???? I saw it around here the other day, but apparently it's gone....

DT: "Another claim w/o proof or evidence. There`s an accepted onus to minimize civilian casualties and the IDF did that." And THAT is the Principle of Proportionality. While *I* am talking about the Principle of Distinction. You have no idea of the distinction between the two, do you? DT: "Yet you keep saying it`s a 120mm round, even though you claim it`s just a cannister that fits the 105 into the barrel. 105`s accurate for the round you claim was fired, but you like to fake that it was bigger, so lie and use the cannister size. Yes, I get it" No, you don't. There is NO CANNISTER. It's a 105mm round with a 120mm SABOT. That can make it either a 105mm round or a 120mm round i.e. a shell that can be fired from all the four marks of the Merkava. Depleted-uranium shells have Very Thing Penetrators, with HUGE Sabots, but they are STILL 105mm or 120mm munitions, not "40mm munitions". You are so ignorant that you aren't even aware when you don't "get it"!!

DT: "1) not proven they were hit by a Merkeva" Haaretz: "A tank in the area fired a round, which killed the two children. Another child was seriously injured in the incident." The IDF have Tonker-Toy Tanks as well as Merkava's, do they David? DT: "2) Not decided if they were hit by 'flechettes' or '120mm'." Just how many different types of shells *do* you think a tank carries, David? Not Many - they don't waste storage space with Airbag-shells or Spitball-shells. They will stock armor-piecing and HE, neither suitable as anti-personnel rounds in open space. But they DO stock rounds specifically for THAT scenario. They are called "flechette" shells, David, and they are (here we go again!) 105mm rounds with a 120mm sabot. It is perfectly accurate to claim that they are firing flechettes AND they are firing 105mm heavy calibre shells AND they are firing 120mm calibre munitions, because the flechette round is ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

DT: "The IDF sees people moving towards a 'certain point or area', specified as Kassam rocket launchers." *sigh* The IDF has to follow the principle of distinction; the presence of a person in an area of military operation DOES NOT MEAN it is open season on everyone. This is very simple, David: IF the combatant KNOWS there are civvies about THEN the combatant is OBLIGED to attempt to distinguish combatants from non-combatants. When there is doubt the principle must be (a) CHALLENGE first and THEN shoot if the person challenged does not put their hands up and not (b) SHOOT first and THEN examine the body to see if it's a civvie or a militant. The IDF chose option (b). DT: "JB has yet to show the children were civilians or that Israel does not have a right to attack people approaching military targets." IF the combatant is in a position to challenge AND identity is uncertain THEN he's obliged to challenge first BEFORE shooting.

Post #449 DT: "I`ve never said they lost protected status, just that Israel could still defend itself" Ahem.... Post #436 DT: "Terrorists using non-combatants as cover aren`t protected by the GC, neither are the non-combatants." Those are YOUR words: a "non-combatant" looses the protection by the GC if a "combatant" is using them for cover i.e. they are no longer "protected persons". DT: "What I find particularly sad is the 'flatten the school with artillery' where Israel has"..... STRAW MAN ALERT!! I purposely DID NOT introduce "Israel" into that post, because I was interested only in the implications that flow from YOUR claim that non-combatants loose their protected status when they are used as cover by combatants. I was using a non-Israeli scenario precisely so the principle involved wouldn't be muddied by any emotive shout of "Israel-bashing" i.e. such an accusation could not be shouted at me, because Israel WASN'T MENTIONED. Still didn't stop David!!!

447: More rants. 1) I've never said they lost protected status, just that Israel could still defend itself. 2) He continues to ignore all the people Israel regularly arrest both combatants and non-combatants, disproving his claim Israel ignores the rules of war 3) Beslan, of course, is a typical JB bit of propaganda: a) Invent what I supposedly claim, even though it's directly contradicted by my words b) Claim his straw horse shows I'm wrong. What I find particularly sad is the "flatten the school with artillery" where Israel has constantly shown itself unwilling to do just that while the Pals have fired more then 5000 rockets in the last six years and while Lebanon flattens a Pal camp. Finally, he's continued to ignore: 1) His claim about me being away while he's running from threads 2) He theorizes about Beslan but won't say anything about the reality of it, the L camp, et al 3) dropped the "no-one is looking" like a hot potato It's typical, it's sad, it's puppy

"The onus is still on the combatants to distinguish enemy combatants from protected person." Another claim w/o proof or evidence. There's an accepted onus to minimize civilian casualties and the IDF did that. It didn't indiscriminately fire rockets towards civilians (as JB's friends regularly do), it fired at people moving towards rocket launchers. "I`m sure I had already mentioned..." yes, that it was a 105mm round. Yet you keep saying it's a 120mm round, even though you claim it's just a cannister that fits the 105 into the barrel. 105's accurate for the round you claim was fired, but you like to fake that it was bigger, so lie and use the cannister size. Yes, I get it...

Reality is an amazing subject to those of you unused to it. 444: The IDF sees people moving towards a "certain point or area", specified as Kassam rocket launchers. JB has yet to show the children were civilians or that Israel does not have a right to attack people approaching military targets. However, he claims his belief is true, without proof. He's also said the same thing about artillery that hit an apt building right next to terrorists, saying that's also somehow illegal. Yet he talks about "comprehension"? Sad, he still won't leave the madras for the courses I've suggested for him. 445: "that those kids were armed" has nothing to do with being combatants. Recovering rocket launchers does that. "120mm round". He's still: 1) not proven they were hit by a Merkeva 2) Not decided if they were hit by "flechettes" or "120mm". As long as he's inventing, he could at least be consistent...

Foreign rebels seize a school in, oh, Russia. A military response is ordered even though it's full of russian kiddies. Have those kids ceased to be "protected persons"? DT: "Art 28 says there are no protected persons in a combat zone" JB: "They are still protected persons" Russian plans: 1) Storm the school, shooting the rebels but trying to spare the kids. DT: Bravo! The soldiers are heros coz they put their safety on the line even tho the kids were no longer protected persons. JB: Bravo! The soldiers are doing everything they are obligated to do. 2) Storm the school and shoot everyone, then sort the dead kids from the dead rebels. DT: Harsh, but legit; the soldiers are not obliged to consider the kiddies, coz they weren't protected persons. JB: War crime. The soldiers refused to apply the principle of distinction. 3) Flatten the school with artillery DT: Harsher still, but still legit. JB: War crime. Violates distinction and proportionality.

DT: "Funny, to one person you claim it`s flechettes, and not artillery, then you suddenly switch. Puppy, make up your mind." Funny, but I'm sure I had already mentioned to David that the flechettes are contained within a 105mm artillery round, sabotted to fit the 120mm chamber of a Merkava tank. Now, I know that a true zionist wants ever bigger and heftier weaponry to be used by the IDF in an urban counter-insurgency role, but I would have thought that any clear-thinking person would regard a 105mm round as a heavy calibre artillery shell. Not you, hey? Your hoping for some Whoppin' Big Bertha for the IDF, are you?

DT: "There was no way to tell if they were non-combatants, they were near the launchers, Israel has to right to target them as combatants. " No way to tell? The IDF soldiers could not identify that those kids were armed; that is undeniably true, because those kids were not armed. The way to *tell* if they were armed is to challenge them, David, not blow them apart with a 120mm round from a Merkava tank. I'll repeat again; Article 28 does NOT say that a protected person ceases to be a protected person simply because they are in an area of combat - what it says is that their presence can not force the combatants to cease combatting *each* *other* in that area. The onus is still on the combatants to distinguish enemy combatants from protected person, and clearly in this case the IDF made no such attempt to do so; they simply blazed away at a distance with heavy artillery at ANYONE they saw in that area of combat.

DT post #436 "Terrorists using non-combatants as cover aren`t protected by the GC, neither are the non-combatants." DT post #441 "As the GC say, 4th, Part III, A28: 'Art. 28. The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.' " David, David, David... You claimed that the presence of non-combatants in an area of combat means that they cease to be protected persons under GC IV, and as "proof" you quote from Article 28 where it says those non-combatants continue to be "protected persons" - the phrase is there, David, in black and white - even if their presence does not make the *points* or the *areas* immune from military operations. The PRESENSE of civilians in an area of combat does not mean that the military can shoot them dead; it means that their PRESENSE does not force the combatants to cease combatting each other. English comprehension really is not your strength, is it?

As for holidays, I was gone for two days. Let's review some JB: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/894494.html http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/894317.html http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/893868.html http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/889705.html And many more, where JB seems to go on permanent vacation whenever too many facts are presented. Oh, wait, he's still posting. It must not be vacation, it's just his usual running away from clear cut facts, only staying on threads to busily misinterpret the Hague, GC or other things he thinks he can waffle.

"when no-one is looking, perhaps?" Reporters and civilians reported Hizbullah collected film and video last summer. We're discussing this in an Israeli paper. It's JB supporting the "no-one is looking" folks. "HEAVY CALIBRE artillery fire". Funny, to one person you claim it's flechettes, and not artillery, then you suddenly switch. Puppy, make up your mind. "The IDF did not establish..." The IDF wasn't attacking a house, but people at rocket launchers in a field. It had no requirement to, regardless of your whines. "only a true zionist can claim...", wow, you're a Zionist? I hadn't known. After all, you're the one who pointed out that the IDF used them rather than more indiscriminate artillery fire. Welcome to the Zionist club! "urban insurrection", why not? Sorry, but I don't see you complaining about Chechnya, the Pal camp in Lebanon or other places tanks are used. However, an open field in which Kassam launchers sit, with that you have a problem...

Poor puppy, I don't sit in a madras all day, typing what my Imam tells me. I was a tad busy with the real world. Gosh, miss me? "They are combatant-non-combatants, are they?" See, you're getting it. As the GC say, 4th, Part III, A28: "Art. 28. The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations." Of course, JB had to ignore that, acting as if using shields is ok only when used to protect terrorists against the IDF. "Still no proof that they were out there to COLLECT the launchers", yet: 1) Lots of proof the terrorists regularly use children 2) They were near the launchers -- refer to A28 above. "minimize", yup. There was no way to tell if they were non-combatants, they were near the launchers, Israel has to right to target them as combatants. They may have been civilians, they may have been combatants, but they were where combatant can be attacked. Israel tries to minimize civilian casualties. JB and Hamas don't.

DT: "By firing flechettes rather than 120mm shells, Israel was following the GC by trying to minimize civilian casualties and just aiming at the people near the launchers. Funny, funny puppy." Funny indeed; only a true zionist can claim that the use of an indiscriminate and very lethal wide-area anti-personnel weapon is a humane use of weaponry in an urban environment. The flechette round is a 105mm shell with a 120mm sabot, David. Firing it releases thousands of lethal 3.75mm darts. The arch of fire reaches 300 metres, and expands to 90 metres wide. Only a person viewing from TeichWorld could claim a weapon producing a killing zone 90 METRES WIDE is a weapon to be aimed with precision at a rocket launcher less than a metre across. David, mate, it is a FIELD WEAPON. It's meant to clear a wide area of infantry VERY QUICKLY. It should play no role in an urban insurrection and - hold on tight, David, coz this will shock you - neither does the Merkava tank.

DT: "That parents have no responsibility for preventing their children from walking into known war environments is a fact." JES did not ask about my view of the PARENTS, David, so this smart-assed retort of yours is rather wasted, I'm afraid. DT: "That Israel shot at people moving near the launchers is a fact." Ahem. HEAVY CALIBRE artillery fire, David. In an urban environment. Without a prior challenge. DT: "That the people ended up being children is a fact." We are on the same page here, David. DT: "None of those facts makes Israel guilty of anything." The IDF did not establish that those kids were armed, David - irrefutably true, coz those kids WERE NOT ARMED. Israel therefore should have challenged them before opening fire on them,because the onus *IS* on her to distinguish combatants from protected persons. But the IDF didn't bother, and so is guilty of the indiscriminate use of heavy calibre weapons in an urban environment.

Or is that back from a long vacation on Teichworld?? DT: "Terrorists using non-combatants as cover aren`t protected by the GC" Agreed. DT: "neither are the non-combatants" Riiight. They are combatant-non-combatants, are they? There is a category of "demi-combatant", is there? Maybe a "sorta-combatant"? Or a "not-a-combatant-but-I-can-kill-them-anyway-coz-I'm-from-TeichWorld!!!"? Something like that, David?? DT: "Children sent to collect launchers aren`t non-combatants " Still no proof that they were out there to COLLECT the launchers, David, rather than LOOK at the launchers coz they were curious kids. And you can't really ASK them, coz they were rather mince-meated by the IDF. DT: ""The obligation to identify and avoid targetting NON-COMBATANTS", not avoid, but 'minimize'." Ah, right. You *can* target non-combatants, but not too many. People might start asking questions.... wink, wink.... Just shoot when no-one is looking, perhaps?

Even funnier, if your argument is true, you've just defended Israel! By firing flechettes rather than 120mm shells, Israel was following the GC by trying to minimize civilian casualties and just aiming at the people near the launchers. Funny, funny puppy.

"Astonishing attempt at rationalization!" describes your entire existence. As you'd know, if you were honest: 1) Terrorists using non-combatants as cover aren't protected by the GC, neither are the non-combatants. 2) Children sent to collect launchers aren't non-combatants "The obligation to identify and avoid targetting NON-COMBATANTS", not avoid, but "minimize". That parents have no responsibility for preventing their children from walking into known war environments is a fact. That Israel shot at people moving near the launchers is a fact. That the people ended up being children is a fact. None of those facts makes Israel guilty of anything. "always the victim's fault" is what JB lives by. "flachette", JES asks, you respond w/o explaining why it's a flechette. Gosh, is that the only way tanks are armed? JB the military expert...

D: "I have had the good fortune to come across Francis Boyle`s book " Haven't read it, I must admit. Try this link: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18176.htm Someone else (Hannah? Maureen? Natallie?) mentioned this fellow's name in one of the talkback, and I tracked down this article of his. Very, very good indeed, and well worth your time and effort to read it.

JES: "How do you know that they fired a flachette shell?" Article: "A tank in the area fired a round, which killed the two children. Another child was seriously injured in the incident." One shot. Three hit. Two dead. Are you suggesting that Mervaka tanks typically use 120mm high explosive shell as anti-personnel rounds in one of the most heavily urbanized regions on Earth, JES? THAT would be rather difficult to justify, I would think. Perhaps a 120mm armor-piercing round, and the two boys were unlucky enough to be standing one-behind-the-other as that shell drilled a Honkin' Big Hole straight thru both of them? The flechette shell is the standard anti-personnel shot used by the IDF, and I doubt that you'll be able to come up with any evidence that the IDF also manufacturers 120mm rubber bullets or 120mm spitballs. Or maybe you think the Mervaka fired 120mm feather dusters, and the kids - how unfortunate! - were simply tickled to death by them???

Another content-free post, I see, CK Tan..... You're etting quite notorious for it.

JES: "The point is that if one argues that a bulldozer driver has the obligation to stop work until he has made certain that rowdy adults are out of the area, then armed combatants carrying out violent attacks within range of an army, CERTAINLY have an obligation to keep innocent children away from rocket launchers used in these attacks" Astonishing attempt at rationalization! The obligation to identify and avoid targetting NON-COMBATANTS is owed by the people who are *doing* *the* *targetting*, JES, which in this case was the IDF. IF you had said the militants had an obligation to ensure non-combatants aren't killed by THEIR Qassams then, yes, you have a valid point. But THESE kids were not killed by THOSE Qassams. They were killed by flechettes fired by a Merkava tank. The onus is therefore on the tank commander to distinguish between militant and child, and he didn't. Always the same, isn't it JES? Always the victim's fault, and never, ever the fault of their killer.

I agree with everything you said, except for the bit about him knowing it.

(thanks again, t, for the alert - i was b-z catching up with work backlog :-) That's why he CANNOT give any DIRECT answer when his views are challenged. Instead, he chooses to muddy the issues further by obliquely amending his debunked comments. Look at his interpetations of international laws and child psychology. I can't wait for the Lancet to honour his "discoveries". Still, he has clickfool's pom-pom girls (lakshmi, dutch, etc) to massage his ego.

Hello Johnboy, I wish to commend you for your attention to International law. I appreciate your insight and application of it on the talkback. Did you know Victor (aka Paul Harris and Richard from London) is a lawyer too but I might add more the outlaw type (like Alan Dersh- owitz) and he is driven by the sheer greed and promise of the Mandate. Hence the law just gets in his way and this might explains his teeth gashing at your comments. Still, the law is the law and like it or not he and his beloved Israelis will be held to account. Keep it coming! Thanks, Dutch P.S. I have had the good fortune to come across Francis Boyle's book on Palestine, Palestinians and International law. He is quite the American legal scholar on International law too and he was responsible for drafting the Biological Weapons , Anti-Terrorism Act of 1989.

Under the private Israel programme "Save a Child's Heart", doctors at Wolfson Hospital near Tel Aviv repair congenital heart defects for children like Ketnani from the Palestine territories, Iraq, Jordan and Africa. More than 1,000 children, about half from Gaza and the occupied West Bank, have been helped so far by the programme, which is partly funded by the European Union. The other side from mitnight. 2000-2006 the IDF killed more then 800 Pals children.

HTIS TIME JB YOU REALY HAVE SHOWN YOURSELF TO A COMPLETE NIWIT ! "JORDAN HAD NO SOVEREIGNTY TO HAND OVER" THEY DIDNT HAND OVER ANY THEY JUST DISCLAIMED ANY RIGHT TO ISRAELI TERRITORY WHICH THEY HAD CAPTURED IN 1948 !! YOUR LOVE AFFAIR WITH GENEVA AND ITS CONVENTIONS MUST END IN DIVORCE JB AS YOU ARE UNSUITED TO EACH OTHER !!

"really wonder how two fools (Abbas/Olmert) can sit together to work out a peace deal???" (Willy) You took it out of my mouth...

This Abbas thinks Israel give a damn about whatever he says. He thinks he's so important for Israel. Stupid old man. You lost, Abbas.

"Escalation of IDF attacks most often occur when there is a lull in qassams, which in turn drives hamas into a heightened degree of qassams." (YS) Bunkum! "Most often" should read "RARELY". Most often it is the incessant Qassams, terror attempts, or successes, knifings, shots etc,. Only because of the horrible WALL, and fences, are terror attacks minimized although hundreds were PREVENTED just by good intelligence, in time. "why should one expect peace from those who hate it?" (ML) Good question! Hamas will ever, EVER, WANT PEACE WITH ISRAEL??? Say yes, you liar.

PLEASE EXPOUND ALL INSTANCES OF IDF STATEMENTS WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN PROVEN LIARS ?? YOUR EXPERIENCE IN MY OPINION AMOUNTS TO WATCHING TV !!

is this related to arab muslim colonialism beginning in the 7th century ad and never ceasing ?? dutch german spanish british portuguesefrench belgian turkish chinese russian colonialism ? your continuing stupidity never ceases to amaze me for someone who had the brains to study medicine ! or is your medical cerificate a fake ?

Abbas who has never once call for the stopage of Qassam attack by Hamas should stop blaming Israel when IAF strike at the Qassam launchers. I really wonder how two fools can sit together to work out a peace deal???

"Escalation of IDF attacks most often occur when there is a lull in qassams, which in turn drives hamas into a heightened degree of qassams." (YS) Bullshit! "Most often" should read "RARELY". Most often is the incessant Qassams, terror attempts, or successes, knifings, shots etc,. Only because of the horrible WALL, and fences, are terror attacks minimized although hundreds were PREVENTED just by good intelligence, in time. "why should one expect peace from those who hate it?" (ML) Good question! Hamas will ever, EVER, WANT PEACE WITH ISRAEL??? Say yes, you liar.

SHE ADMITS AT LAST THAT THE MUSLIMS WILL NOT ALLOW ISRAEL TO LIVE IN PEACE !!

Howdy Yoav; "Death is terrible." How one dies could be terrible, benign, tragic, painfull, painless, natural, unnatural, too soon, too late, etc. I'm not so sure about death itself however. Personally, I like to think of death as the act of being reabsorbed back into the Whole like a raindrop falling into the ocean, but then, I'm one of those people who maintains that consciousness is conserved although it can be divided into separate egos or merged into a larger one. Perhaps I'm crazy, but I had a mystical, religious experience when my APC was blown up by a 500 lb. anti-tank mine in Vietnam on 5/3/69 and God Himself told me that this is so with a reality that was more real that what we normally call "real". Repeating a falsehood does not make it true and repeating a truth does not make it false. "If you don`t stand for something, you don`t stand for anything!" I stand for Israel and a two-state solution. Where do you stand?

"They also know that the IDF "identifies" suspicious activity in occupied territory by firing a flechette shell at it from a Mervaka tank. Which is why THEY weren`t there." How do you know that they fired a flachette shell?

...Mahmoud Abbas' office condemned Israel's military operations in the Gaza Strip.... Well, against all odds, Abbas chose to condemn the Israel actions. It means he saw a prospect of doom of the Fake PEACE with Israel even clearer than a few weeks ago. The time is running out Abbas, chose Israel or your own people. ARAFAT is WAITING your decision inside his grave.

shall we? The point is that if one argues that a bulldozer driver has the obligation to stop work until he has made certain that rowdy adults are out of the area, then armed combatants carrying out violent attacks within range of an army, CERTAINLY have an obligation to keep innocent children away from rocket launchers used in these attacks.

We need volunteers like you. Just keep giving them hell. Amazing, if dangerous nonsense that they paddle.

VH: "jb you have apropensity for inventing non existent law !!" I have set out the laws, victor: the definition of occupation is found in Article 42 of the Hague Regulations, 1907. The criteria for deciding when an occupation ends was determined by case law, specifically, the "Hostages Case" in the Nuremberg Tribunals immediately after WW2; a redeployment of troops out of an area is *NOT* enough to end an occupation. Now, if you can show me where those two bedrock fundamentals of Humanitarian Law have been overridden then we have something to discuss. Otherwise, victor, you're blowing smoke... VH: "wasnt it you who created a no mans sovereign land in israel ??" No, victor, it was not. VH: "read the peace treaty jordan/israel 1995 " Since Jordan's claim to sovereignty of the WB was never recognized then she had no right to hand over her non-sovereignty to anyone, as was pointed out in Annex 1(a)(7) of that very treaty you loudly trumpet. Go read it, victor.

Howdy Labhras; Nobody pays me a dime for opposing you sleazo, scumbag terrorist-lovers. What's this about a possible job with AIPAC? Hey, I could use a few extra bucks and AIPAC could do a lot worse than hiring me. Unfortunately, I'm not an Israeli, nor a Jew, nor a Christian so I don't think that my job application with AIPAC would go anywhere except into the trash can. I'm what you might call a "volunteer". It gives me freedom to say what I really think.

The old double act.Stan& Oliver.Tosefta & Licoln True they compliment each other because they keep saying the same thing.They never differ. Talkback full of their broken record. They like to be monotonous. Their subject,you said it, Bankrupcy ! Their client ! You gazed it! Hamas ! Hamas for Peace ! Let me explain. Hamas is one leged cripple.Once they stop hating Israel and the Jews they will be legless. Their only asset is hating Israel & the Jews. Once they stop hating Israel & the Jews they will loose their power base. Stan Lourale & Oliver Hardy they support Hamas for reasons of their own. Hamas started with a bankrupt asset; their Covenant 1988 goes as follow: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it- The Martyr Immamm Hassan al- Banna of blessed memory". One thing is certain, Hammas quickly taking the Palestinian Cause to its grave.

swine?...LOL such a big 4th grade word for such a small woman. next time you taste bacon, take a look in the mirror and think of your mother.

Ah Clucky, Same old ploy in action: asked a simple (but searching) question. Answer back with a thesis that belies the question and the evidence of shonky thinking. I blame your Dad for your stupidity. :)

Even Hamas gunmen starts to look resigned and tired of this way of life. Indeed they do!

Labhras and click. Separated at birth. Either that or Labhras was cloned from click DNA.

must answer this quickly, as I was floored you'd mention this structure. Not 6 months ago I wrote to one of the local papers in favor of preserving hangar 1 as valuable piece of history. Visited a few times myself - when Moffet museum was located in there - often with visitors who were interested. You are right about the PCB removal being doeable monetarily given all the SV money floating around. There's in fact a committee of high tech people that was formed to save the hangar, but I was out of the loop since march this year. Your comment gave me an impetus to check on the current status of whatever discussions they were having with NASA Ames and the navy. I just hope that they did not make irrevocable decisions yet. Of course you are right about the real estate and city interests. But those are things that can be fought - if one gets enough people interested. And for us here, history is a bit in short supply, so emotional appeal works. Wish I could say same about ME peace..

Israel and peace do not go together. Never have, never will.

Jeff I see you are on the night shift.Hope the AIPAC Folks are paying you min wage. regards

Massada is past history. The gteater Israel is dead in the water. Bye bye.

Get your facts straight before you shootyour mouth off..I have always supported Israel....check out post#388..it says that post##384 was not mine.

So can Hamas. Wakey, wakey, stupids! Israel wants the Real Estate! Isn't that right Israel - peace is just not on your agenda!

"It is impossible to conduct a peace process, to advance negotiations and to achieve results as long as Israel continues with its policy of military strikes," said Abbas' office in a statement. The statement said that the IDF operations, which have killed 13 Palestinians since Monday, cast strong doubt on Israel's desire to make peace Duh. Is this a revelation or what.More business as usual. Get real.

Arabs who still refer to the Elders of Zion are no better than Jews who point to Hamas Charter as their latest excuse to occupy and subjagate. The problem Danite is that you haven't figured out, Hamas and any other form of Palestinian Militancy can't be defeated by humilliating, subjagating, or starving out... I don't believe this is the right approach to achieving peace. Unfortunately, Jews seem to push this idea that force and more force will lead to surrender...It is a dark worldview you press Danite. If the Hamas phenonomen happened out of some vacuum, then perhaps I might agree with your approach advocating violence and depravation of civillians...however, Hamas the movement was born out of deep frustration with the situation of 40years, which we both know is largely Israel's responsibility, not 100%, but a large part.

There are some similarities, of course (between Iraq and Vietnam). Death is terrible. As you can possibly see, I have an injury myself -- not here at the hospital, but in combat with a cedar. I eventually won. The cedar gave me a little scratch. There's a lot of blowhards in the political process, you know, a lot of hot-air artists, people who have got something fancy to say. See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda. If you don't stand for anything, you don't stand for anything! If you don't stand for something, you don't stand for anything!

Hello Dana, Now that you recommend "No end in sight" I will go and see it. I did read a few books on the Iraq situation and its development, including "Fiasco", also a Woodward book and the Tenet memoirs. I think I have a fair picture of what happened. Bush is inept, and a non-thinker. Here is something he said about himself: "I'm also not very analytical. You know I don't spend a lot of time thinking about myself, about why I do things." Unfortunately, he chose Rumsfeld for Defense, who came with a reform of the army into "lean and mean", but with not much thought about what to do after "mission accomplished". And there was no brain there to ask good questions. I can assure you that I dislike Bush very much, and even predicted some results of the Iraq war. But I see him as a clown, not as a malevolent spirit. What can you do? Idiots cause a lot of damage in this world. I can easily believe that he wants peace in the ME, but he will blow it they way he does everything he touches.

If you want to stop the cycle, BOTH sides stop their fire. We leave the determination of who bears the original guilt for later, and in the meantime we have quiet. Yes, except some very, very blind or very, very determined earthlings while verbaly snaking spews that BOTH sides have to stop firing, are very much content (as a matter of fact) insist on one side stops firing while another side is practically ignored (why should righteous defenders of oppresion & naqba justice restoration really stop). Thankfully those determined earthlings are like dime a dozen talkers, that much ignored & that much irrelevant.

Can you not simply accept that Yaakov Sullivan finds the crimes of the State of Israel vile and unacceptable? Click No I can't. To much evidence the contrary

I think that this good Canadian came to a Jewish site to show support for Jews. You prefer people who come to a Jewish site with anti-semetic rants like Hamas Hannah. I too, a sixth generation proud Canadian come to a Jewish site to show my support for Israel.. I can't even imagine the psyche of people like you. If I wanted to support islamists, I would go to one of their fantasy sites.

If they strap bombs on their children and send them to their deaths why is it inconceivable that they would send them to retrieve rocket launhcers.

Israeli. Does not sound very uncommited or unbiased. No arrogance in the likes of C.FOOL is there,he is so honest,well informed and rational.

"I/P peace from this gang?" - Dana from Sunnyvale - where Bill Finn spent his later years as a VP from Lockheed. The answer, is why should one expect peace from those who hate it?

Hanger One at Sunnyvale is a magnificent and unique piece of human history Dana. It also might someday - even today - be useful for humanity. But it is not useful at this moment by those who wish to destroy it, and it is sown with asbestos which is their excuse to get rid of it. It isn't really a question of money. It would cost as much or more so to destroy it as to address it's asbestos problem. The issue is that it is history and real estate developers want the land. I am cynical Dana for the simple reason that I have seen cynicism is a more valid view of the Human (not the universal) condition than optimism. Humans with an optimistic view did not want WW II. Monsters like Tojo and Hitler did. Who won? Did WW II happen, or were the optimists correct? We are not so far apart in our apprehension of the universe Dana as we are in our understanding. See part two please.

Howdy Janice; Temporary hudnas, ceasefires, and armistices have been tried since 1948 including the Rhodes Agreement of 1949, the Egyptian-Israeli Territorial Exchange Ageement of 1950, and the Oslo Accords of 1993. In each and every case, it was the Arabs who first violated the agreement. Naturally, Israel is no longer interested in half-assed hudnas which the Arabs (Palestinians) have no intention of honoring when it suits their purpose to do so. The only acceptable option anymore is a permanent peace agreement which determines the borders between Israel and the futuristic Islamic Republic of Palestine down to the last nanometer. Anything less will not work.

Not my post..someone used my name in vain

I'm afraid that it is a bit too late for Israel to take control of the airwaves and control the minds of the Palestinians in the best tradition of Orwell's 1984 as you seem to propose. And talking about psychological warfare, what do you think is the overwhelming lesson Israel teaches the Palestinians every day with each dunam taken, each tree uprooted, each Palestinian home destroyed and each Palestinian killed? It is that only brute force counts. Human rights, respect for someone's property or land or historic rights, that is all liberal bullshit. So don't be surprised that there are Palestinians who will take this lesson to heart and answer in kind. It is Big Brother Israel itself that infused the Palestinians with "terrorist ideology" as you call it. A nice example of newspeak. In old english it is called the ideology of resistance.

Remember the most recent lull. Alan Johnston had just been freed and Hamas was making political ouvertures and declaring its readiness to observe a cease-fire, but one in the whole of Palestine and not just the Westbank, in order to create an atmosphere conducive for political negotiations. An Israeli government sincerely interested in making progress would have picked up these signals. But Israel chose to blatantly ignore them. The conclusion is that Israel is not interested in a genuine peaceful solution, but wants to play the divide and rule game. It has been said so many times on Talkback, but what Israel wants is land more than peace, as today the villagers of Artas had to discover. Israel is driven by the arrogance of power and its society is slowly corrupted by it.

suffered through his posts. . .He is a person who writes:If the Palestinians can reach their destinations by the end of the day,that's not so bad is it?(Reference to checkpoints).He used to say:Gaza should be incinerated! Lately he has modulated his tone somewhat.You have to understand that he served in the American army during the Viet Nam war.Hence his sanitized quoting of stats.,principle of proportinality etc. I just read Hannah's post to him.She asks the pertinent question(to a military man):didn't the IDF have equipment to see that these were children? My own view:this was a deliberate cruel act to bring the Palestinians to their knees.Ofcourse,that's not going to happen.Meanwhile,israel goes from one barbaric act to another & descends slowly into a self created inferno !

Why do you see fit to come to an Israeli newspaper to express your likes and dislikes about Canadian politics?

dejavu how many times all over again?

The question should never be whether the children are innocent or not. They most certainly are, including the 16 year olds handling explosives, the 14 year olds firing RPGs, the 12 & 10 year olds retrieving the launchers, & the 8 year olds riding in the terrorists` cars-all equally without any idea what they are doing & all equally innocent victims of radical Islam`s terror that had senselessly murdering them in the name of pride & honor of Islam. The PA sponsored Israeli bashing statements had never been nor increasingly will be ever able to cover up or divert from such reality or prevent Israel from defending herself from not only terror & provocations itself but also the ever present threat & planning of such. The malicious Israeli bashers or Arab apologists echoing or `grabbing` on to such PA statements are too predictable & `nauseating` today, as much already `stale dated` & `deep down dismissed` as such statements are.

still assigning the capacity to Bush of actually wanting something good to happen - if only for his selfish need to salvage his dead reputation? I'm still with Mark Lincoln regarding the inability of one already shown capable of malevolance to reform or to change. You still believe that there were actually good intentions in the white house and its administration, which were just [very] badly executed. Powell resigned when he realized this was not the case; the reality was bad intentions in the first place. Not accidentally bad consequences of good intentions. if you don't believe it - I just recommended the documentary "no end in sight" to ML. Definitely not fun viewing. Though I'd be curious - as an experiment - whether it's good enough to turn an optimist into a 'hang 'em high' realist. Of course, in my case, this affirmed what I knew or suspected and which is why I've called the bush/cheney/krystoll/raamsfeld cabal war criminals who should be sent to hague. Still hard to see...

Howdy Tosefta; As usual, you place too much emphasis on the person who holds the office and not on the functions and responsibilities of the office itself. Bush, Cheney, Rice, Olmert, Livni, Abbas, Fayad, Haniyeh, Nasrallah, etc. can all drop dead tomorrow and they will simply be replaced by the next idiot in the line-of-succession. The identity of the office holder might be able to influence policy slightly one way or another, but they cannot dictate it (except in totalitarian regimes). In other words, politicians and diplomats are expendable and their coming or going will not effect much in the long run.

To excuse the way hamas is trying to distroy this like they did Oslo.Ben Alofs is happy for this, as he wants the one state solution and is even willing to fight to the last palestinian to do so.How noble of him.

Hi Jeff, the hudnas of which I am speaking go way back before Israel pulled out of Gaza and turned the place into the world's largest outdoor prison. It goes back before Shalit was captured. These offers of a truce, all of which were underminded by Israel, go back to the early 2000s. The constant targeting of Palestinians and the death of many, many hundreds, including many innocent men, women and children, may well have given the Palestinians the idea that a truce was not a good idea, especially if it were to be one-sided.

Since it's back to good vs ill intent (aka evil), a new documentary making the rounds in theatres is "no end in sight' which is a truly disheartening encapsulation of the run-up to Iraq and the aftermath. The cynicism that led to quick replacement of diplomatic and military experts by political hacks and/or pundits whose arrogance in the face of the unfolding calamity is nothing short of stunning. Really illustrative of the carelss actions and callous reactions of a chain of command, blinded by obedience, beset with incompetence covered up with spin, that is nauseating and scary. What struck me more than anything though is the indifference to consequences - to US, Iraq, and indeed, the world - shown by most involved in the administration, including Bush + cheney on down, Bremer, starred commanders, etc. Nothing like this callous shallowness to illustrate the "banality of evil" where life, security and US interest, are all sacrificed for hubris + ideology. I/P peace from this gang?

Hamas has a rather excellent reputation in keeping its word. Likewise, Hizballh's word is good and they do what they say they'll do. For those who watched the scene for a long time, this is not the typical behavior of Palestinian terrorist groups and requires some explanation. My own explanation is that it has to do with their religiosity. Hamas announced a cease fire months before Israel left Gaza. They kept it (with the exception of one incident when they blamed Israel for a mishap). The cease fire was broken by Israel in June 2006 when it assassinated Samhadana, a recent Hamas recruit. That was the beginning of massive Qassam firing by Hamas, culminating with the kidnap of Shalit, the copycat kidnapping by Hizballah, and the Lebanon war. The side who broke the cease fire ended up regretting it deeply. At the present time, Hamas is not interested in inflaming the military situation further. It wants a cease fire in the West Bank as well, but responds to killing of civilians. It is regrettable that Israel did not use the Hamas offer to control the other groups if a cease fire was to be declared in the West Bank. History will be shaking its head in disbelief at the Israeli shortsightedness.

CKT: "It`s like saying children will rush into a burning house" Cluster bombs. The curiousity and lack of appreciation of danger is what makes these weapons so deadly to children. CKT: "or blindly step onto a busy highway" Children *AREN'T* disproportionately hit by cars in your country?? I suggest you try taking some kids to school one day... CKT: "You also ignore the FACT that the killer ADULTS who launched the qassams DID NOTHING to STOP the kids from gathering at the area" You also seem to be ignorant of the fact that this article SAYS that the militants flee the area before the lauchers fire the missiles. CKT: "As the terrorists know, one DEAD KID is far more PROPAGANDA-WORTHY than 20 dead grown-ups." They also know that the IDF "identifies" suspicious activity in occupied territory by firing a flechette shell at it from a Mervaka tank. Which is why THEY weren't there. Why do you think that CHILDREN must also know this fact? Because it's so common?

"With Olmert I have some questions. Olmert may believe that he can get peace with the "wall" as the border, and that it will take another generation of Palestinians to accept this." - Tosefta This could be the case, except by then the Settlers will have created many more 'outposts' and the 'wall' will no longer be acceptable to Israelis. Olmert seems incompetent. Bush is malevolent. Even if it were the other way around the dove of peace is toast.' "But it could be that Olmert is also thinking about his place in history. At present, he is considered the worst PM ever." - Tosefta When have you seen anything like imagination in Olmert? When have you seen any evidence he thinks of tomorrow much less posterity. Bush has stated his contempt for posterity. He has stated that only what you grab today, only what you spend today, matters. Keep on being an optimist Tosefta. I will continue to be a pessimist who wishes well. But I have to see a real chance before I hope too much.

JES: "This just reminds me that it was Johnboy a few weeks back who insisted that the IDF had murdered Rachel Corrie, because they should have stopped their work, gotten out of their armored vehicles in a sniper-infested area, and physically moved the civilian adults (including Corrie) out of the area before operating the bulldozer. Johhnboy`s a pip, ain`t he?" And you are a fabricator of evidence, JES. Care to back up your observation that Corrie and all the other protesters were standing around in full view while snipers were taking pot-shots at people?

"I do hate this bizarre people and I wish to see them off humanity." Sir, You see - and you wasted so much time claiming that you are not anti-Semite. Everybody has seen that and it is good that you eventually agreed - you'll feel better now. You formulation is very revealing - "bizarre people" - strange,alien, incomprehensible and therefore dangerous. Very well said. I advise you not to pray anymore to one of ours. Sweet dreams.

To Theodor, Sam from the UK and foolproof, apparently in amman and others. Perhaps you don't realise that the way you criticise Clickfool doubles up the hatred that Israel arouses amongst uncommitted people around the world. The blind arrogance of the typical Israeli on these Talkbacks is a convincing argument for saying that Israel is not a civilised state.

It seems we have gone over this already, but it bears repeating. Bush himself is not a neocon but a dummy. At this point, even a dummy knows that history will remember him as an awful president, unless he achieves something. I don't buy the assumption that Bush wants endless war. (The Cheney attitude is more open to question.) At this time Condi Rice is "in charge" of ME policy and she would also want some achievement to redeem her reputation. All this does not mean that the US is going about the peace process in a rational way, but at least it wants to achieve it. With Olmert I have some questions. Olmert may believe that he can get peace with the "wall" as the border, and that it will take another generation of Palestinians to accept this. If so, then he does not plan on the present process to succed. But it could be that Olmert is also thinking about his place in history. At present, he is considered the worst PM ever. To change this he needs a historical peace agreement. Some analysts believe this. In any case, Olmert did not show himself to be a good statesman, and my guess is that he will fail.

Yaacov the anti-zionist converted Jew strikes again!!! Again I keep wondering why have you converted to judaism, we doNOT need you we already have Amira Hass, Gideon Levy, and 7 thousand more go see the Massada2000 S.H.I.T. list. BTW you belong to it, are you proud, Yankele?

Wasnt it strange that Abbas escaped to the West Bank? It struck me as strange that they said he was stronger than hamas there. If I remember properly, the latest local elections in the West Bank were won by hamas too. And Fatah gunmen are also trading fire with the IDF.

Do you mean the IDF is wrong when it defends all the Israelis, that the Israeli Arabs do not need the IDF protection? Or which peace are they ready for?

'It is impossible to conduct a peace process, to advance negotiations and to achieve results as long as terrorists in Judea Samaria and Gaza continue with their policy of terror strikes,' said ____?___ office in a statement.

Canadians support Israel right to exist but not the brutal occupation lead by this country. The only thing I dislike about Harper his strong stance for Isreal. He should be a little bit more moderate with this complicated conflict and not do interior politic on it. Don't forget his strong position for Isreal is because he wants to gain vote from the jewish canadians who tradionnaly vote for Liberal. Even if i dislike a lot the Liberal in Canada, a least their positions on this reflect more the canadian values of justice, egality and freedom.

Howdy B'galil; "Screw you Abbas - Call off your dogs first" That puts it in a nutshell. Unfortunately, Abbas has already screwed up by losing PA control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas. Furthermore, Chairman Abbas has no control over the Palestinian attack "dogs" (as you put it) and that bodes ill for any peace agreement in the near future. Abbas will be lucky if he can avoid being assassinated by some religious fanatic like Sadat and Rabin before him.

?Israel`s escalation of hostilities by massacre in assassinating 13 CIVILIANS including INNOCENT children? PA Office Such broken down PA camp & Abbas closest circle recordings, only needing to change locations, names, titles & number of always `innocent civilians or victims` is old, not surprising & always expected to pup up somewhere. Where & when does it usually pup up? Mostly on the heals of a series of or long & successful string of IDF operations, causing damage to terror without providing Arab apologists, Israeli bashers & so called `moderates` with much of Israeli collateral `slip ups`. Meaning the statement is urgently needed for an expedited combating & damage control of an Israeli effectiveness vs. waning current Israeli evil outlook in the air. Without constantly hanging Israeli `villain` picture in the air it is that much harder to drag Israel into the Arab ultimatum, thus as usual, Arab world cause way supersedes everything, including PA vs. Hamastan relationship.

The current massive escalation of Israeli military incursions in the Westbank and Gaza is in line with Israel's unwillingness to sit down for peace negotiations. The offer of Hamas some time ago to observe a cease-fire, but one covering all of Palestine, was treated with disdain. Mahmoud Abbas too is treated with such disrespect, that it pitiful to see him struggle. The weakness of the American leadership make it difficult to distinguish which is the imperial power, the USA or Israel. The only way for Mahmoud Abbas to save himself from disgrace is to turn away from the Israelis and the Americans, go back to his people and try and rebuild a united national movement to confront Zionist colonialism. And we here in the West and East should continue patiently to build and expand the movement to boycott Israel.

Please go on living an entirely one sided delusion. Go on thinking things are so clear through that narrowest of prisms through which you gaze. I can match any purported Israeli transgression with 10 from the Arabs/Palestinians. If these are the conclusions, that you gained from the CNN story, you missed the point entirely. I have yet to see palestinian security or Arab security forces stand in and thwart extremist attacks, let alone try those responsible, instead of celebrating them. I have yet to see any palestinian party take any responsibility for themselves or their actions and not blame all their problems on others, like Israel does. Groups like Hamas, consumed by hatred and violence, provide only despair under the guise of hope. And it is that insecurity, obsession,blind hatred, violence, to say nothing of the numerous wars the pals/Arabs have brought to israels doorstep,and lost, which have placed the pals in the predicament they now endure,underneath all the rhetoric

Lynn, you can talk all you want about CAIR and the Muslim Lobby but their clout as compared to AIPAC and the rest of the Israeli lobby is miniscule. There is absolutely no doubt, and you should be thrilled about it, that the Israeli lobby is, hands down, the most powerful ethnic lobby in the US. After all, which lobby wanted to go to war in Iraq. Which lobby now wants the US to attack Iran? You guessed it. It is the Israeli lobby that is asking the US to do its dirty work for it. Now shall we talk about AIPAC officials spying for Israel or about Jonathan Pollard?

The Israeli Arabs have been ready for it since day one.

You seem to have trouble distinguishing between a sermon and government policy. A few years ago Pat Robertson called for the destruction of a small town in Pennsylvania for voting for a new school board. Should that be considered US government policy? Should Pat Robertson be arrested for calling for the death of Americans? Before that, when he was still House Majority Leader, Dick Armey called for the entire ethnic cleansing of the Gaza Strip. Did that ever become US government policy? The interview was on C-SPAN. What exactly are you calling for?

Howdy Janice; The so-called "hudna" was never officially agreed to and it applied to Hamas in the West Bank only. Israel did refrain from targeting Hamas members and withdrew the IDF from the Gaza Strip (who had been searching for CPL Gilad Shalit in 2006). It was the other Palestinian militant/terrorist who broke the truce first by continuing to fire Qassams (provided to them by Hamas) into Israel. A truce that is not agreed to by both parties is not a truce at all.

When I say that Israel must negotiate from a position of strength, I don't mran to imply that Israel is initiating provocations in Gaza. I mean thar if Abu Mazen is using terror attacks on Israel in order to make it more pliable, then Israel must have a strong defense arm in order that her negotiation position and the security of her citizens should not be compromised.

Nonsense. The quisling and Israelies don't want the peace process to go ahead.. the Israelies as they would have to acknowledge and obey international law (which they will in the end) and the quisling because he will loose what little prestige he thinks he has and what little power and the source of funds he now has.

As Linda Rivera showed in two well written responses regarding the hate and absolute insanity in the hamas charter I submit a link to a short pdf-document which gives a quick glimpse of the content of the hamas charter. Nothing is taken out of its context. http://www.aipac.org/Publications/AIPACAnalysesMemos/Hamas_Charter_of_Hate_Calls_for_the_Destuction_of_Israel.pdf Anyone continuing a discussion as regarding the wishes of hamas after reading their charter is just a dummy. Simple as that. As long as the advesary has a charter like this, there will not be peace. That would be an oxymoron.

The situation on the ground got WORSE since Hamas took over Gaza. Yet, in the Olmet/Bush world of make-believe, this was seen as an improvement. After all, now if you talk to Abbas, he is not tainted by having any association with Hamas. Never mind that his association enabled Abbas to get Hamas to agree to peace talks, to a referendum, and to a cease fire. In reality things got worse, but for Olmert and Bush the sun was shining. Unfortunately, reality is rearing its ugly head and intruding into the world of make-believe. Out of the 13 Palestinians killed in the last couple of days, 12 died in Gaza. Yet, Abbas is complaining and saying that there cannot be peace talks under such conditions. What happened, is Abbas dreaming about Gaza again? In reality, the Palestinians see themselves as one nation with the Gazans; they do take to heart what happens in Gaza, and Abbas must respond to it. He cannot be seen as not caring about Gaza. Unfortunately, the power of make-believe is very strong. If we are not lucky, there will be some peace plan not worth the paper on which it is written, and a cycle of violence will start anew.

Sorry: I try not to throw my own pearls before swine. How's that?

"Because if you go back over past history, you will see that Israel`s targeted killings of militants and civilians has little to do with what provoked it." Yaakov, As odd as it may seem at first, I agree with you. What provoked the killings is, first and foremost, the terrorist ideology. Israel must try to change what the Palestinians think, over all, not to pick at specific targets. Israel should unleash a total psychological warfare campaign that would make all Palestinians- from the little kids to the senior Hamas commanders- understand that using force against Israel has, is, and will be completely useless. Israel has the technological capacity to completely control Gaza airwaves. Why it doesn't do so is a mystery to me. Other strategies it should've used while the PA was under military occupation were the complete banning of cellphones and non-sanctioned radios and TVs, for example. We live in the information age, and whoever controls information controls everything.

My comments are based upon far more experience than you have yet to demonstrate in any of your posts, but perhaps you think using all CAP means that you are smarter, when in fact it just demonstrates only your ignorance and arrogance. The IDF has proven itself to be a pack of liars over and over again, so when someone or some group chooses to lie, they lose what ever shred of credibility they once had. The indicator of when the IDF is lying is not a red light as you believe, but when their lips start to move after they have committed some egregious crime against humanity or have intentionally fired upon children. Time and time again the IDF have been proven to be liars until the evidence is overwhelming and they are forced to admit their deeds, so the learned perception that they are a pack of liars is nobody?s fault but their own.

"Gaza civil war, a fabrication" - KUTW Really? Did the bees in your bonnet tell you that?

If you believe AIPAC is "just another Washington lobby"go to "Washington Report on Middle East Affairs".they keep a running total on how much cash each member of congress has received from AIPAC.The amounts are staggering.

You are so naive it's pathetic.

"Hamas was moderating its stand all along (as a result of international pressure), and started talking about the two state solution as their final objective. They agreed to Abbas negotiating with Israel and having a referendum on the deal." - Tosefta Such changes constitute a serious threat to endless war which is beloved by the right. "With Hamas having finally agreed to the 2-states, there would have been little danger of missiles from the West Bank. This is what is killing the real peace prospects today." - Tosefta Were it not rockets, there would be another excuse. "In short, by bringing Hamas into the process, there could have been a realistic peace agreement, while now it can be done only in Dreamland." - Tosefta Only godless commie liberals want peace. Real men, real conservatives love death and destruction. Olmert and Bush are real men who love death and destruction. Anything which might result in peace must be destroyed. Got it?

Your statements belie the facts. Escalation of IDF attacks most often occur when there is a lull in qassams, which in turn drives hamas into a heightened degree of qassams. This is a statistical fact. Expansionism, confiscation of proivate land, changing of the indigenous population is a war cirme simply one your refuse to admit. And you still refuse to consider that agression as a factor, the daily killing of civilians deemd by israel to be nothing more than collateral damage even when murder was intended.

Why does someone have to be a Zionist to agree that what these Aholes do is disgusting and intolerable. A sovereign nation has to endure the day in and day out barrage of missile and mortar fire across its borders by terrorists plain and simple. Hamas wearing suits are no different than Hamas wearing masks and driving around shooting and launching missiles. I would demonstrate that peace comes with great sacrifice. If you don't stop your people from launching missiles we will cut power, food and water. Thats barbaric but watch who they turn on. It just takes a strong stomach to wait them out. Before long the Jeeps with marauding thugs will be overrun by Joe Palestinian wanting power and water. But the suits just keep on blaming Israel. And it goes no and on. People like you don't provide solutions, just complaints and in the wrong direction. drink up and go to Al Jazeera

Linda,If you beleive what you wrote, then you are as sick as the fabricator of those words.

"Imagine what would have happened had Israel and US had the good sense to work with the Hamas Unity Government after its formation. . . .Hamas suggested a cease fire in the West Bank (in addition to Gaza). In return, it pledged to impose it on the smaller terror groups. Abbas also made the pledge. Had this been done, Hamas and Fatah for the first time would have shown an ability to suppress terror. This is important for Israeli confidence in a peace deal, which now is non-existent." - Tosefta You assume that the current governments of the US and Israel would welcome Israeli confidence in a peace deal neither government wants.

My thoughts exactly..I wouldn't trust Abbas as far as I could throw him..he's a smiling face,but it's a two faced smiling face..he's suckering the US/Israel for all the $$$ he can get,false promises,more and more demands while conceding nothing. I can't believe how stupid and naive Olmert/Livni are...scary as hell.

Time to end the endless barrage of crap coming out of the Home of Pussywhipped Brits that suck up to Terrorists. Lets start with good old Click the Fool. Children that conduct terrorist activities are still terrorists. If I recall didn't you Brits send a couple of 11 year old boys to Adult prison for bashing in the skull of a two year old toddler??? Unavoidable Fact there Clicky. So keep that morality bullshit in your beer stein at the pub old boy. I think if you are such a Jew Zionist Israel hater you should just stop reading this website and wasting your time. Perhaps a more accepting audience that can feed off you bullshit and propaganda would be more your flavour. I know that I am tired of reading your stupid moronic comments day in and day out because they border or cross the line of stupidity. Anyone with a fraction of a brain knows that Arabs, Palestinians have a low value for their own peoples lives. If they didnt they wouldnt blow themselves up.

Recently I was in northwest Russia, in territory that used to be Finland but was violently taken over by the USSR in an unprovoked act of war just before WWII. The Finns were given 24 hours to evacuate to Finland from the conquered land. Russians then moved in to their houses. The Finns have never terrorized Russia; never exploded themselves in Russian buses, or fired missiles. Why? Because they were dealt with firmly. They moved to a new place and rebuilt their lives. The same should've been done with the Arab population of the territories conquered in 1967. Moshe Dayan's act of kindness (letting the Arabs stay in the territories) created untold anguish for both Arabs and Jews.

Israel does not need an increase or decrerase in the number of katyushas or qassams to attack disproportinately. If you go back and check the record you will see that most oftern when there has been a lull and maintenance of the cease fire, that is precisely when IDF chooses to attack disproportionately. This is an attempt to escalate. Drive hamas into a corner more than they already have, seperate Abbas and make it more difficult for him, meanwhile continue expansion and claim there is no partner while talking the good talk.

indrajaya, Why do you use sarcasm when saying things like "The weaker the enemy, the better"? Don't you wish your enemies were weaker than they are? In the same way, Israel wishes to weaken its enemies. Unfortunately the world community doesn't let Israel weaken its enemies so much that they beg for mercy.

"the IDF refuses a cease fire in the West Bank; it has easy life there with easy access to terrorists, so why give this up? The problem is that the terror groups retaliate from Gaza, because that`s where their Qassams are." - Qassams "THE PROBLEM is that the terrorists keep up their acts of terror. It is the terror that invites the IDF to intervene and eliminate the terrorists." - Cipora Martians worship the god of War and engage in constant wars. It is understandable that they don't understand how cease fires work; they keep fighting to the death. But we do it differently. We know that an action calls for a reaction, which invites its own reaction, and so on. You may have heard the Earthly term "cycle of violence" which refers to such a situation. Notice that in that cycle, no "guilty party" is pointed out, because at this point it becomes immaterial. If you want to stop the cycle, BOTH sides stop their fire. We leave the determination of who bears the original guilt for later, and in the meantime we have quiet. We call this ?Heaven on Earth?, but for Martians it is ?Pluto on Mars.?

Howdy Simon; "and stop calling the PAL people Terrorist" It's interesting that you would use the somewhat derogatory term "Pal" to refer to the Palestinians. Not all Palestinians are terrorists, but almost all of their militant groups are because they deliberately target civilians for the purpose of furthering a political, religious, or ideological agenda. We are just calling a spade a spade here. "and oby by the international law and resolution if you don`t like the adjusted mutualy pragmatic accord." So far, Israel is not in violation of any international law nor any UNSCR (UNGARs and ICJ rulings since 1985 carry no weight and are not binding on Israel). What "adjusted mutualy pragmatic accord" are you talking about? The Arab Ultimatum perhaps? "and old game is about to be decoded through conversation and talking." It could be, but there's still a lot of shooting going on too. "Thanks" You're welcome.

interesting documentary on cnn...jews r no strangers when is coming on terrorism..hmm jewish underground movement...the leader just said when asked r u terrorist he replied 'maybe, i am ...what can i do'

abbas' comments via his spokesman.The Mayor of Ramallah attended the protest at the nearby village at the appropriation of 500 dunnams of land(for the infamous Wall& the even more infamous settlements!)He was authorised to do so by abbas.The guy must be feeling the heat at last!There was a dismal piece in imeu.net by Nora Barrows Friedman,Inter Press Service,Aug.21,2007 called 'When the Occupation Gets Filthy'.About israel's use of sewage to poison Palestinian orchards."It constitutes a crime of genocide,a crime taking place in the light of day&over 6 decades,that must be urgently addressed by the international community."(Jeff Halper).Along with the siege of Gaza this all is intended to bring the Palestinians to their knees.Won't happen.

This reminds me that, after Israel left Gaza, Abbas praised the ?martyrs?. And also, he is the chief of the Al-Aqsa Murderers Brigades. Now that he has shown his true face, I hope Israel doesn?t commit the idiocy of giving them the West Bank as well. I have been suspicious that the civil war in Gaza was a fabrication. Once Hamas controls Gaza, Abbas has been pretending to be a man of peace so to get the West Bank. If he gets it, Israel will be attacked from two sides.

and the MURDER of AMERICANS: Broadcast from Gaza mosque, Oct 13 2000, Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, on Palestinian Authority TV (transcribed by Memri): "Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them. Wherever you are, kill those Jews and those Americans who are like them..." Flash Video-What Americans need to know about jihad: Jihad's Goal is "Death to America" http://www.terrorismawareness.org/know-about-jihad/ Jihad Demands WAR on ALL infidels STOP Inciting Children to MURDER! http://www.teachkidspeace.com/flash.php

A great number of people find Islamic behavior totally bizarre. Just wanted you to know. A lot of us just want the craziness to end, not everyone dead.

Contrary to what Abbas says, the peace talks are hampered by the non stop terror carried out from Gaza against Israel. The daily barrage of Qassams from Gaza, directed at sovereign Israeli teritory, at Israeli population centers, including schools, is an act of war that cannot be allowed to continue. Every country has the right to respond to an act of war committed against it, as well as to all acts of terror, and to protect its civilians from harm. Furthermore, Abbas knows that peace talk stumbled on the insistence of the Palestinian side on the so-called right of return. Abbas and the Arab world should realize that there can be no right of return into Israel proper.

The pal terrorists are doing jihad on the Jews. By jihad ruled, nobody is a civilian, not even babies, and so all of them are legitimate targets. So Silvienne go to your hamas friends and protest the rules of jihad. How is Isis doing, Jeff?

there is sincere indications or intentions by the Olmert Government to make the necessary concessions for the fall "Peace Conference" and the Abbas Government, along with all the Palestinian factions, to stop Qassams and all other violent activities, while the negotiations are in progress. What is being accomplished by not adhering to the basic requirement of holding fire, in order for the people of the region to trust the leaderships' sincerity in bringing about peace? We've already seen a number of officials on both sides, the Israeli & Palestinian, who have established trusting alliances to work together, and that's already a positive outcome.

Human beings just don't learn...why? We all know that Palestinians brainwash and indoctrinate their kids to hate Jews. This is a well documented fact. We also know that their culture believes that killing jews and oneself as well is an honorable act for Allah. Israel on the other hand, is an open, free society which values life, freedom and progress. Now, which side will you listen to? The one who hates and wants to kill or the one defending inoocent lives from terror everyday? I have no doubt that Palestinian kids are taught to retrieve weapons. Palliwood has already been exposed!!!

a JEWISH Lobby. Shall we discuss CAIR, Muslim Lobby, and its unindicted co-conspirator status in regard to the Holy Land Foundation?

FRED ARE YOUR COMMENTS BASED ON MILITARY EXPERIENCE OR JUST PLAIN IGNORANCE ?? APPRENTLY YOU ARE BLESSED WITH THAT INDICATOR AND A RED LIGHT FLASHES ON THE TOP OF YOUR HEAD WHEN THE IDF LIES ??

Islamo-Fascists hide behind women and children, fire from within densely populated areas and make war against civilian populations. In PA areas, schools, streets and sports teams are named after suicide bombers. Palestinian Authority Muslims are taught murdering Jews is the highest goal in life and attains paradise: http://www.pmw.org.il/AFD.html The majority of PA society voted for Hamas terrorists. Hamas Charter: 'Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' The Palestinian Authority hailed as heroes the terrorists who brutally murdered defenseless 8 months pregnant Jewish mother, Tali Hatuel, and 4 little daughters in Gush Katif in May 2004. A belief and teaching which is the opposite of Western culture that regards murder as evil and a great sin against G-D and man. G-D commanded: YOU SHALL NOT MURDER

Settle down..you're starting to stutter.

The same hamas was only responding to acts of Baruch Goldstein?? Poor Hamas what are they to do aye?? You know full well your heores are waiting for chance to spoil this like they did Oslo, now you have cover story ready.Dont you get it Ibrahim?? The only one you are fooling is yourself.Dont blow this one Ibrahim, if you guys do, you will be very ry very sorry, thats what scares me about arabs, is your capacity for self destructive behavior seems to have no bottom.

There have been daily rocket and mortat attacks for weeks before the israeli actions, rather it is hamas trying to goad Israel into action to ruin the peace talks.Wake up Yaakov and look at things as they are.Your heroes are shmucks.They are to blame.

All you say is a continuous chain, extending over centuries, of lies and you would take the Jews' life whichever way possible, pogroms, extermination camps, suicide bombers, anything. Well, those days are gone; Thank G-d, we have the IDF and the Jewish brain/ingenuity to take care of our future. All the rest is minor details for you to rumble about; we do not care, whoever raises his hand against us we will eliminate him, be it a 9 years old child sent by his parents or "friends" or a 70 years old woman looking for some excitement. Deal with it, AH!

Yes, the IDF has more easy acess to terrorists in the West Bank than in Gaza. That is why in the West Bank, the IDF can arrest them. THE PROBLEM is that the terrorists keep up their acts of terror. It is the terror that invites the IDF to intervene and eliminate the terrorists. No country would put up with Qassams raining down on its civilians, including kinder gartens, on a daily basis.

Hey Jeff, Think back to the many times when the Palestinians offered a hudna or truce. It didn't take long for that truce to be broken by an Israeli strike on one or more Palestinians. When the retaliation by the Palestinians occured we would hear on US news programs that a period of "relative calm" had been shattered by the attack. But what was a period of "relative calm" for Israel was anything but that for the Palestinians who were always under attack by Israel, even when they had proclaimed and kept that truce, a truce that Israel never accepted.

I wonder if CNN will mention the role of arab "americans" in fundamentalist activities.They shouldnt be hard to miss, unlike the clever jews they arent very subtle.The American Jewish community is still progressive, that you think we need to feel sorry for people who quote the elders of zion is of course a testament to the incredible egotism of the Arabs.Sorry we dont feel sorry for our enemies anymore, we tried that but it only made them worse.Too bad to see a non progressive community like the Arabs pretending to be one.Where were the demonstrations against hamas suicide bombings?? OH! You say "but thats different" Wake up Ibrahim, come on already with your "shtick"

I saw it too. I particularly was touched by the kid whose family was gunned down by a passing car. Wait until this evening, it's about Pals. I wonder how many fanatics have taken over that group?

Ivar you are a disgusting person. You write: "The IDF operations while serious peace negotiations are under way are indeed appalling". Still you know these IDF operations are a defensive response to palestinian terror acts, i.e. palestinin terrorists purpously targeting israeli civilians. Critter.

"This is Israel`s last chance for peace, and the last chance for arresting the slide into Islamic chaos for the Middle East and the entire WORLD!" (Ivar) Welcome to the ME - where "last chances for peace" is the primary export item. Not to worry - there'll be many more of those. Until one day - it'll turn out thast one of those "last chances" was really the last...? In the meantime, I suggest watching the demographics of israel, slowly turning inexhaurably towards the orthodox way of viewing - then treating - the world. This is where the future battles are being waged, and where all the last chances will be manufactured. Of course, slight problem there - the moslems - especially the radicals are waging the same type of war, excpt there are 2 orders of magnitude more of them to start with. Fast forward into the future 20-30 years hence (the calculations are easy), assuming similar reproductive apptitude, add a smidgen of global warming and a sprinkling of short sighted policies..

I personally have no problem with either you or Yaakov Sullivan finding the crimes of the State of Israel vile and unacceptable. What I can not explain is that you seem to overlook or O?K the crimes committed by your own countries. It is like when one person who stinks himself points finger at another and demand that he takes a shower. May be you think that killing Palestinians who are at least launching rockets or sending in suicide bombers is more criminal then killing Iraqis or Afghans that launched none and sent none?

Imagine what would have happened had Israel and US had the good sense to work with the Hamas Unity Government after its formation. Gaza of course would not have been detached from the West Bank without Hamas needing to fear a coup. But there would have been far better positive consequences: 1. Hamas suggested a cease fire in the West Bank (in addition to Gaza). In return, it pledged to impose it on the smaller terror groups. Abbas also made the pledge. Had this been done, Hamas and Fatah for the first time would have shown an ability to suppress terror. This is important for Israeli confidence in a peace deal, which now is non-existent. 2. Hamas was moderating its stand all along (as a result of international pressure), and started talking about the two state solution as their final objective. They agreed to Abbas negotiating with Israel and having a referendum on the deal. With Hamas having finally agreed to the 2-states, there would have been little danger of missiles from the West Bank. This is what is killing the real peace prospects today. In short, by bringing Hamas into the process, there could have been a realistic peace agreement, while now it can be done only in Dreamland. It is not too late. I suggest the Saudis insist on this as a condition for participation in the Bush peace charade. What will help is that the Italian Prime Minister already suggests this, as well as some British MP?s and all Arab countries.

Fewer than 10% of Palestinian Authority Arabs oppose Muslim human bomb killer attacks. It took the global village - financing, arming and training - to raise this jihadist, genocidal society. www.israelnationalnews.com ...Overall, PA Arabs had the most radical views and were most likely to support all forms of terrorism. 79% of them said they saw Hizbullah terror chief Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah as one of the most admirable figures in the Muslim world – as opposed to 66% of Lebanese who had a negative view of him. And, 60% saw Iran as a model for the Palestinian Authority to follow, the poll said. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/130702

hypocrisy not to demand it of both sides

The IDF, the terrorist arm of the Israeli government, cannot be believed as it has lost all credibility after being caught in so many outright lies before. The ease and impunity of which the IDF terrorist display when they kill children shows how little regard for the lives of non-Jews that Israel has today. Note that even the IDF's official lies state that the children were in the area, but had not been warned off, or even touched the launcher that the IDF claims was there. If the IDF terrorists knew there was a launcher, why did the tank not fire on it and destroy the launcher instead of waiting for a child to target and then try to direct blame at others for their immoral act. Israelis have become the same as the monsters who once did the same to Jews, and in many ways far worse given the awareness of what the IDF is doing by people with the freedom to speak out that remain silent. At least the German's had an excuse for not speaking out as they would have been shot....

The progressive community you referred to has over the mellinia almost been wiped out. No more. Bombing Gaza and death squads in Nabulas are there for one reason only and that is to defend Israeli citizens from rockets and other forms of attacks in both places. Throughout history Arabs have mastered the art of starting war and crying buckets when they find themselves in a real fight. Cry us a river. Unlike the Islamic community Jews continue to be progressively committed to human rights. We can't do much about that these days because the haven for abuse of such rights are Islamic countries which we were long ago kicked out of, at least the lucky ones.

So when one learns about Canadian police shooting unarmed native protesters or bringing natives to outskirts of Canadian cities, stripping them and leaving them there to freeze to death, Canadian developers stealing native land, Canadian native living without drinking water and etc one should start regarding everything you say with a suspicion, right?

Abba, you may be able to fool the World but Israel deals with actions - not just words. If you called off your dogs then we wouldn't have to kill them

What is questinable here is that these Israeli airstrikes are not proportional to some qassams being fired into fields. That is because the raison d'etre for these IDF attacks has little if anything to do with security or defence. They have not stopped the qassams but only increased them. The attacks are strategic and are meant to escalate the already tense situation rather than tamp it down. It also places Abbas in an untenable position vis a vis Hamas and Israel and of course the Israelis are fully aware of this. It is divide and rule and drive the Hamas into greater attacks.

?I don`t think that Israeli Jews are ready for peace.? what about the Israeli Arabs? Are they ready for peace?

"2 Hamas taken to the big caliphate in the sky. 2 down, how many to go?" (jane) Just another 1.2 M or so in Gaza. perhaps they should put you in charge of security operations. You'd clearly know just what to do (based on your posts). Just hire a few more operatives from around the TB's (may I recommend vladimir, gina, Peter sm and kutW just for today? they are guaranteed to have no qualms about npalms....) Go Jane!

Q. Where do you get your facts? A. From the news media which repeat what the IDF tells them. That's not news, that's propaganda. The IDF always claims that its victims are terrorists.

First duty of a state is to defend its civilians. Israel is doing nothing more than that, aggressively, but nothing more than that. Abbas knows that is is posturing.

WHICH PIECE IS THAT DORIS ??/ YOU NEED ADOCTOR MORE THAN EVER DONT DELAY TREATMENT !!

Arabs already have TWENTY-TWO States so why do they need a TWENTY-THIRD? When you come to think of it, the Jews have only ONE, a historical and biblical long which was there even before the Arabs had their 22 States. Consequently why should that ONE tiny little state be shared with the Arabs?

What you say is a crime would be described by British domestic law, and international law, as self defence. In terms of the latter, a state has the right to encroach into the territory of an adjoining state to eliminate a threat to its citizens. Not only is this not vile and unacceptable, its valiant, responsible, learning from the lessons of history and absolutely required.

Why doesn?t he prosecute the terrorists? By the way, some of the killed gunmen were ?militants? of his party.

Abbas's statement that IDF ops prevent progress is political posturing. Everyone who is willing to see and describe fairly what they are looking understands that IDF operations are defensive, aggressive yes but purely defensive. There is no doubt whatever that complete quiet on the GAZA side of the border would go undisturbed (and by complete quiet I also include not preparing for the next launch of rockets or other forms of attacks). So long as there is not complete quiet Israel must do what it is doing, though I wish that it was much, much tougher. Your yukky Natalie, really yukky.

So he would like the ?militants? to attack Israel without retaliation. Is this the man of peace?

and oby by the international law and resolution if you don't like the adjusted mutualy pragmatic accord. and old game is about to be decoded through conversation and talking. Thanks

Serbs actually chose once to fight Nazis and you did not. At the same time you have chosen to walk away and live people in your care to be killed and IDF has not.

On a second thought Angela you're right. I do hate this bizarre people and I wish to see them off humanity.

On a second thought Angela you're right. I do hate this bizarre people and I wish to see them off humanity.

On a second thought Angela you're right. I do hate this bizarre people and I wish to see them off humanity.

On a second thought Angela you're right. I do hate this bizarre people and I wish to see them off humanity.

'"It is impossible to conduct a peace process, to advance negotiations and to achieve results as long as Israel continues with its policy of military strikes," said Abbas' office in a statement.' It is also impossible to make much progress when the Palestinian militant/terrorist groups continue to try to attack Israel which is why the IDF is responding to the threats in the first place. Let me get this straight, Abbas. You are saying that it is OK for the Palestinians to conduct "Jihad operations" against Israel, but that it is not OK for Israel to defend herself against them. With an attitude like that, Palestinian statehood will not be forthcoming within your lifetime. By the way, how's the PA's loss of the Gaza Strip to Hamas going these days?

'"It is impossible to conduct a peace process, to advance negotiations and to achieve results as long as Israel continues with its policy of military strikes," said Abbas' office in a statement.' It is also impossible to make much progress when the Palestinian militant/terrorist groups continue to try to attack Israel which is why the IDF is responding to the threats in the first place. Let me get this straight, Abbas. You are saying that it is OK for the Palestinians to conduct "Jihad operations" against Israel, but that it is not OK for Israel to defend herself against them. With an attitude like that, Palestinian statehood will not be forthcoming within your lifetime. By the way, how's the PA's loss of the Gaza Strip to Hamas going these days?

Brant, if you think the Saudi lobby has even the most minute clout of the Israeli lobby you must be smoking something powerful. I have yet to see a convention of a Saudi lobby that can command the appearance of the vice-president, Speaker of the House, Senate Majority leader and at least half of the Congress. I have yet to see a candidate accept large sums of money for his/her campaign from the Saudi lobby. More likely, if some money for a candidate comes from the Saudis, the candidate will return it. The only thing the Saudis have going is their oil and they know that no matter what, the US won't stop buying from them. The Saudis also know that the powerful Israeli lobby, which admits that it writes legislation, will ensure that Congress will not allow a major arms deal to go through. The Israeli lobby is one of the most powerful lobbies in the US. On its website, AIPAC proudly proclaims that it is the most important organization affecting America's relationship with Israel.

Brant, if you think the Saudi lobby has even the most minute clout of the Israeli lobby you must be smoking something powerful. I have yet to see a convention of a Saudi lobby that can command the appearance of the vice-president, Speaker of the House, Senate Majority leader and at least half of the Congress. I have yet to see a candidate accept large sums of money for his/her campaign from the Saudi lobby. More likely, if some money for a candidate comes from the Saudis, the candidate will return it. The only thing the Saudis have going is their oil and they know that no matter what, the US won't stop buying from them. The Saudis also know that the powerful Israeli lobby, which admits that it writes legislation, will ensure that Congress will not allow a major arms deal to go through. The Israeli lobby is one of the most powerful lobbies in the US. On its website, AIPAC proudly proclaims that it is the most important organization affecting America's relationship with Israel.

Brant, if you think the Saudi lobby has even the most minute clout of the Israeli lobby you must be smoking something powerful. I have yet to see a convention of a Saudi lobby that can command the appearance of the vice-president, Speaker of the House, Senate Majority leader and at least half of the Congress. I have yet to see a candidate accept large sums of money for his/her campaign from the Saudi lobby. More likely, if some money for a candidate comes from the Saudis, the candidate will return it. The only thing the Saudis have going is their oil and they know that no matter what, the US won't stop buying from them. The Saudis also know that the powerful Israeli lobby, which admits that it writes legislation, will ensure that Congress will not allow a major arms deal to go through. The Israeli lobby is one of the most powerful lobbies in the US. On its website, AIPAC proudly proclaims that it is the most important organization affecting America's relationship with Israel.

Brant, if you think the Saudi lobby has even the most minute clout of the Israeli lobby you must be smoking something powerful. I have yet to see a convention of a Saudi lobby that can command the appearance of the vice-president, Speaker of the House, Senate Majority leader and at least half of the Congress. I have yet to see a candidate accept large sums of money for his/her campaign from the Saudi lobby. More likely, if some money for a candidate comes from the Saudis, the candidate will return it. The only thing the Saudis have going is their oil and they know that no matter what, the US won't stop buying from them. The Saudis also know that the powerful Israeli lobby, which admits that it writes legislation, will ensure that Congress will not allow a major arms deal to go through. The Israeli lobby is one of the most powerful lobbies in the US. On its website, AIPAC proudly proclaims that it is the most important organization affecting America's relationship with Israel.

Does Abbas (Abu Mazen) think that we will ignorethe Palestinian (not 'Arab',Johnboy)terror ,so that we will become more pliable at peace negotiations? We will neggotiate from a position of strength , jusst like Abbas wants to negotiate from a position of strength. It is regretable that children were in the area. however every Palestinian mother has to tech here child that 'al-Jaish al-Yahud' hum khatar maut (dangerous). Maybethese children are being brain washed to be shuhada (plural of shahid) for Micky Mouse.

I don't think that Israeli Jews are ready for peace. We all know that Israel must get out of the occupied territories to have any kind of peace. There has been no change in the Israeli policy; they still allow the settlers to be in control of the peace process. Those settlers are ignorant who see themselves as holier than holy and they will not allow Israel to have peace with the Palestinians. They are like the pervious holier than holy who lead to the destruction of the first and second temple. Why do you allow history to repeat itself?

you're mother must be so proud!

I call upon all posters to sign a common declaration of support for the brave soldiers of the IDF.LoL

If the IDF had not killed those terrorists, they could have killed Israelis. The IDF obligation is to protect the Israeli people. The hamas government is to protect the Gazan people but, far from it, they send children to the places where they can be killed. The IDF protects the Israeli children. The jihadists use the pal children as shields.

Why is it the settlers and or Africans, Darfur , Sudan, Ethiopians always have to fend for themselves. WHile trillons of Dollars are spent building up gentile ways Iraq, Afghanistan, Indonesia tusanami lands.That goes directly 100% against the almightys word for the hebrew first and all the tribes which is the chain of command. Be it all the tribes of hebrews are not blessed by others , then none shall have peace or prosperity soon. ISH 24, Jer 30. Daniel 9:26-27 nothing but fighting and whirlwinds from a-z till the end of this age. As it was in the Days of NOah and thier temporary corrupt and violent pint size saul wars.The temp govs deserve all of Gogs arrows, shot at once like a storm, at least him and his army got a legacy , and a burial honored by the almighty. Saul pint size wars do not get anywhere. Endless chores , for the borings of politicain princes.Gog gives a kings size war, and at least fullfills something good at the end of it.

adon Abbas, wake up, and smell the rockets. tell Hamas to stop and Israel will stop also. You want Israel to lay down and die ? Abbas you would have been killed long ago if weren't for the Jews.

I guess 911 was just a burp? Many more Americans were killed. So, next excuse for hating Jews?

CLIKKY YOU NEED ATTENTION !! ISRAELS CRIMES ????? YOU ARE ACOMPLETE MORON 60 YEARS OF ARAB MUSLIM ATTACKS !! PROPAGANDA FROM EVERY MUSLIM STATE HATE MAIL FROM ANTI SEMITES LIKE YOU !! THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG IN YOU WHICH YOU REFUSE TO RECOGNISE !!

after you puked, here?s another list which perhaps make you puke again 20-08-07: A Paestinian killed and a child wounded by unknown gunmen in northern Gaza 19-08-07: 3 Palestinians injured by armed Palestinian groups in El-Fokhari Area 19-08-07: PCHR calls for investigating the abduction and killing of a Palestinian from Nuseirat Refugee Camp 15-08-07: New murder crime in what is know as ?honour killing? in the northern Gaza strip 15-08-07: 2 executive force members killed, others injured including a woman, in armed clashes with a Gaza clan 13-08-07: PCHR condemns the breakup of a peaceful rally and attack on journalists by the executive forces 10-08-07: More than 20 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip were wounded in violence sparked when Hamas forces arrested some 20 members and supporters of rival Fatah in one of Hamas? largest sweeps since it took over the territory. Beit Hanoun residents said Hamas forces fired into the air to disperse relatives of the detainees, mainly women, who protested against the arrests. Television also showed footage of Hamas men later raiding several weddings near the area. 09-08-07: Hamas forces detained a hospital doctor affiliated with Fatah for several hours a day 02-08-07: Toddler killed and another child injured by gunfire in the Gaza strip And that?s only part of what happened alone in August in Gaza among PALESTINIANS (without the involvement of IDF/Israel). Terrific peace prospects!! /Sources: Reuters and PCHR

"Either your WITH THE TERRORISTS or Against Them!" Why is a "moderate" complaining when Israel aims at rocket launchers that fire rockets at Israeli cities?! Why is a "Moderate" defending attacks against Hamas and Islamic Jihad?! Pres Bush keeps refring to Abbas as a man of peace and "moderate" - what about Pres Bush's line of "Either your WITH THE TERRORISTS or AGAINST THEM!" Why is the Israeli gov SILENT?! Can Abbas be TRUSTED?!

How does Israel provoke attacks from Hamas?The people of Sderot are subjected to nearly daily rocket attacks and people being killed as a result of such terrorism.To give the excuse, as I've see on this site and others, that many are not being killed, so why retaliate,is disingenuous and diminishes the value of Jewish life. If Israel wanted to destroy Hamas,no additional excuse would be needed.Its intent to remove the Jewish state is clear from its reason for being in existence and its history of suicide attacks, bombings and other killings against Israelis.

It was inevitable that the romance between Israels leadership and Abbas would fade. Abbas is unhappy because Israel used him like a sucker and had no intention of pursuing peace with him. Israel is unhappy because Abbas stopped being aggressive toward Hamas, which was his only use to the Israelis. At least Abbas got some weapons and some cash and some released prisoners. Israel got the Palestinians at one anothers throats. It was not a complete waste of time.

Ibrahim - I usually find you level headed and a person who could be a partner. Don't you think Abbas should also be critical of the Palestinian actions that require IDF response? From a PR viewpoint alone, the Palestinians chould put down their arms (ala Ghandi)and cause a cease fire by default. The EU would swoon to them. Chet - Do you really think CNN is a Bush supporting network? Or Israel supporting? Really? Last nights show focused on a minority of Jews who do not enjoy widespread support from the rest of us. It also did not show the countless acts of Palestinian terrorism that helped shaped the response of most of the Jewish 'warriors'. Be sure to watch tonight as the Muslims get their turn. It will be interesting to see if Palestinian terrorism gets it's fair mention as the grand daddy of it all. FOOL - You're just plain racist. You help no side. You hate Jews and your lack of reality will never help Arabs. Go watch Salad Fingers online and reflect on your life.

Where asleep till now Ken or you r one of those psychopaths which Hannah describes in this talkback?

"What have Jews done to you that you dislike us so much? Is it possible the source is not even related to the subject discussed here but instead to more personal related experiences?" Do you think you are being clever asking this sort of question, Angela? It isn't an original debating ploy. Exactly the same question has been asked of me, and by a number of people, who think they've been equally clever. What you're suggesting is the following: "The only reason you attack Israel is because you hate Jews, who've done something unpseakable to you in the past" Can you not simply accept that Yaakov Sullivan finds the crimes of the State of Israel vile and unacceptable?

for all you armchair generals-with all your theories and predictions-you dont have a clue-you think you are smater than the almighty-if you had not convinced your self already that he was just a fairytale-you would see that his plan is coming together-god could squash you like a bug-and will if you mess with his people

Give me a break. Time for the Arabs to put up or shut up. Personally, I dont think ANOTHER Arab Palestinian state should be created. They have enough land and enough countries. What they dont have is the balls to struggle FOR peace pease and prosperity. Remember, Abbas is a Holocaust denier who has NEVER apologized for his thesis or said it was wrong. I hardly think peace can be possible with a man who denies historical facts.

after you puked, here?s another list which perhaps make you puke again 20-08-07: A Paestinian killed and a child wounded by unknown gunmen in northern Gaza 19-08-07: 3 Palestinians injured by armed Palestinian groups in El-Fokhari Area 19-08-07: PCHR calls for investigating the abduction and killing of a Palestinian from Nuseirat Refugee Camp 15-08-07: New murder crime in what is know as ?honour killing? in the northern Gaza strip 15-08-07: 2 executive force members killed, others injured including a woman, in armed clashes with a Gaza clan 13-08-07: PCHR condemns the breakup of a peaceful rally and attack on journalists by the executive forces 10-08-07: More than 20 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip were wounded in violence sparked when Hamas forces arrested some 20 members and supporters of rival Fatah in one of Hamas? largest sweeps since it took over the territory. Beit Hanoun residents said Hamas forces fired into the air to disperse relatives of the detainees, mainly women, who protested against the arrests. Television also showed footage of Hamas men later raiding several weddings near the area. 09-08-07: Hamas forces detained a hospital doctor affiliated with Fatah for several hours a day 02-08-07: Toddler killed and another child injured by gunfire in the Gaza strip And that?s only part of what happened in August in Gaza among PALESTINIANS (without the involvement of IDF/Israel)

The IDF operations while serious peace negotiations are under way are indeed appalling!! This is Israel's last chance for peace, and the last chance for arresting the slide into Islamic chaos for the Middle East and the entire WORLD! Enough already!

Abbas is correct that without a cease fire there cannot be peace talks and no peace. Every time there are victims, the peace talks are interrupted. The terror organizations all offered a cease fire, to hold BOTH in the West Bank and Gaza. But the IDF refuses a cease fire in the West Bank; it has easy life there with easy access to terrorists, so why give this up? The problem is that the terror groups retaliate from Gaza, because that's where their Qassams are. Israel should get some sense and agree to a cease fire. If it is not kept, it is always possible for Israel to terminate it too. A little bit of straight thinking can change the situation enormously.

There will never be and end to this. Hamas will never stop until all of Palestine is returned to them. Israel will never stop grabbing for more land. Children die or are maimed everyday....day after day. What makes me laugh is that these freedom fighters are insulted for having children around the rockets, no it is not right to have children do a mans job but everyday their lives are put in danger by the IDF. There will never be a peace, this will never end until one side destroys the other and that is just how it will be.

C'mon guys. Israel's a small country. The IDF can't afford sophisticated equipment like field glasses or telescopic sights for the soldiers. How were they supposed to know if those were kids? Besides, the soldiers have to take off their glasses to fire. Somebody needs to collect donations for the IDF for field glasses and telescopes so this kind of tragedy doesn't hapen in the future.

the bombing of civilian targets and infrastructure in Lebanon, the arrest of the Hamas legislators, the racism of the Isreali people, the relentless propaganda campaign about the ineffectual Qassams and the non-existent "terror" of the past few years - the list could go on and on. I still have many Jewish friends and debate with them endlessly about my concerns for the Palestinians and my outrage at many of the Israeli actions, so while I am definitely not anti-semitic, I am very much opposed to the actions of Israel today. Unfortunately, I have to confess that I have become very discouraged about my great hope for a lasting peace - I now believe that Israeli intransigence and the entrenchment of a huge number of settlers make that goal impossible.

Chet perhaps you failed to notice that the murdere of Rabin is in jail. Also the perpertators of the attempted blowing up of the palestinian girl's school also served jail time. the Rabbi Khahane's group was much discredited in Israel and Jews were forcibly removed from so called palestinian land. which Arab is in jail for slaughtering Jews, let alone attemtong such. Next to Arab lies and propoganda, Aipac is in the minor leagues. Cnn is blatantly anti semitic. They could have easily made the above points.

You're hilarious in your denial of the truth,ridiculous actually. The Pals shouldn't take their kids to the "office" with them..obviously hazardous to their health.

All the guaranties were there if the good will was there. But it sound it wasn't and hiden agenda or even exposed now agenda knoked it off. Still some genuise decision from some courageous leaders can get thing back to the track of peace with mutual respect and peace for every one then you can do business. a honest one. good luck

'this is a new sick a twisted low for the pals. truely appauling. a total war crime. i can`t believe how they have no value or concern for their own children!... sick and disturbing...' I know. As bad as the Hungarians in 1956. Awful, isn't it? I recall my parents had a photograph of two Hungarian children throwing rocks at a Russian tank. Funny thing, though...I've the distinct impression my parents thought the Hungarians were RIGHT. Go figure.

""This is a cynical use of children but we are no longer surprised by anything we see. A 14-year-old child has already fired an RPG rocket against an IDF force, a grandmother aged close to 70 fired a light weapon against a Givati [Brigade] force recently in the Strip." Crushing the people is a bitch, isn't it?

the IDF killed Hamas Terrorists, not militants. 6 oh whom where Top terrorist leaders.

Nasrallah is still alive because he hid in Syria like a coward. While his own people paid the price of HIS mistakes with THERE blood.

By way of background, I grew up in a neighbourhood with many Jewish families and as a result I had a great number of Jewish friends - I had dinner with their families and they with mine. At the time I fell under the spell of propaganda pieces like Uris' "Exodus" and others and became a great admirer of the Israeli David fighting indomitably against the Arab Goliath. This sympathy and admiration grew with Entebbe and the Munich Games. Then the wake-up call: the IDF sank the US spy ship at the cost of 173 lives and notwithstanding the testimony of ALL the survivors, the Israeli lies were accepted. After that all Israeli statements about their actions were treated with suspicion. This has proved to be the proper course in light of constant lies, evasiveness and double-dealing since then. A short list of present-day abhorrent Israeli conduct: the lack of regard of killing Palestinian women and children, the occupation and the land and water theft, the Apartheid Wall, the checkpoints,...

Hello. I absolutely agree with you. I have never understood why you have to give explanations for defending yourselves.

Join us in weeping for the beautiful nursery school in Sderot which the cruel and brutal qassam attacked. Weep for the lives of the Arab children in Gaza and the west bank that are distorted by having to be exposed to television programmes encouraging them to cut short their own lives and those of Jewish children.

I am always amazed when arabs and their supporters talk of their various victories over Israel like Lebanon, 67, and 73. But I am curious Indrajaya, maybe you can enlighten me: If you won all these conflicts and Israel so defeated as you claim, what are you complaining about, and why are your beloved Palestinians dropping like flies and living in such appalling conditions while Israelis live in a relative paradise, albeit one that must deal with their "victorious" arab neighbours idiocy. Seem slike a pretty hollow victory to me, but what do I know.

It seems like that. But the Israelis wont let the jihadists kill them and get away with it so to please you and your friend.