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Last update - 00:00 20/06/2008
Israel's Messianic Jews: Police indifferent to threats against us
By The Associated Press
Tags: Israel, ultra-Orthodox 


Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family. The explosion severed two toes, damaged his hearing and harmed a promising basketball career.

Police say they are still searching for the assailants. But to the Ortiz family the motive of the attackers is clear: The Ortizes are Jews who believe that Jesus was the Messiah.
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Israel's tiny community of Messianic Jews, a mixed group of 10,000 people who include the California-based Jews for Jesus, complains of threats, harassment and police indifference.

The March 20 bombing was the worst incident so far. In October, a mysterious fire damaged a Jerusalem church used by Messianic Jews, and last month ultra-Orthodox Jews torched a stack of Christian holy books distributed by missionaries.

The Foreign Ministry and two chief rabbis were quick to condemn the burning, but the Ortiz family says vigorous police action is needed.

"I believe that it will happen again, if not to us, then to other Messianic believers," said Ami's mother, Leah Ortiz, 54-year-old native of South Orange, N.J.

Proselytizing is strongly discouraged in Israel, a country whose population consists of a people that suffered centuries of persecution for not accepting Jesus and has little tolerance for missionary work.

At the same time, Israel has warm relations with U.S. evangelical groups, which strongly support its cause, but these generally refrain from proselytizing inside Israel. Even the Mormon church, which has mission work at its core worldwide, agreed when it opened a campus in Jerusalem to refrain from missionary activity.

"Historically the core of Christianity ... was 'convert or die,' so it was seen and is still seen as an assault on Jewish existence itself," said Rabbi David Rosen, who oversees interfaith affairs for the American Jewish Committee. "When you are called to join another religion, you are being called on to betray your people."

Messianic Jews consider themselves Jewish, observing the holy days and reciting many of the same prayers. The Ortiz family lights candles on the Sabbath, shuns pork and eats matzoth on Passover.

Ami Ortiz, interviewed at the Tel Aviv hospital where he is being treated, comes across as no different from any Jewish Israeli his age. He's a sabra, or native-born Israeli, who speaks English with a Hebrew accent, has an older brother in an elite Israeli army unit and was hoping to join the youth squad of Maccabi Tel Aviv basketball team.

But his religion also holds that one can embrace Jesus - Ami calls him by his Hebrew name, Yeshua - as the Messiah and remain Jewish. Orthodox Jews, on the other hand, believe that the Messiah has yet to come, that he will do so only when he chooses, and that any attempt to pre-empt his coming is a grievous sin.

Rabbi Sholom Dov Lifschitz, head of the ultra-Orthodox Yad Leahim organization that campaigns against missionary activity in Israel, says Messianic Jews give him great pain.

"They are provoking... it's a miracle that worse things don't happen," he said.

Messianic activists appear to have had some success among couples with one non-Jewish spouse, as well as immigrants from Ethiopia and the former Soviet Union who have loose ties to Judaism.

Or Yehuda, a town in central Israel with many immigrants as well as ultra-Orthodox Jews including a deputy mayor, Uri Aharon, was the scene of the May 15 book-burning.

Ami Dahan, a local police official, says hundreds of Christian religious books were burned on May 15 in an empty lot in town. He said Deputy Mayor Uzi Aharon, has been questioned on suspicion that he instructed youths to collect the books from homes where they had been distributed and told them to burn them.

Aharon denies ordering the burning. He says the books were collected from a neighborhood of mostly Ethiopian immigrants who are easily persuaded by
missionaries.

"There are three missionaries who live and work in the town, and every Saturday they take people to worship and try to brainwash them," Aharon said.

Many Messianic Jews say they recognize the sensitivities involved and do not distribute religious material or conduct high-profile campaigns. But Aharon noted a recent Jews for Jesus campaign with signs on buses that equated two similar Hebrew words - Jesus and salvation. Public outrage quickly forced the bus company to remove the signs.

Lawyer Dan Yakir of the Association for Civil Rights in Israel says the law allows missionaries to preach provided they don't offer gifts or money or go after minors.

"It is their right according to freedom of religion to maintain their religious lifestyle and disseminate their beliefs, including through literature," he said.

But the obstacles are evident, raised not just from religious activists but by the state.

Calev Myers, a lawyer who represents Messianic Jews, said he has fought 200 legal cases in the past two years. Most involve authorities' attempts to close down houses of worship, revoke the citizenship of believers or refuse to register their children as Israelis. In one case, Israel has accused a German religion student of missionary activity and has tried - so far unsuccessfully - to deport her.

"In incidents of violence, police are reluctant to press charges," Myers said.

The book-burning caused shock among U.S. evangelicals.

Dave Parsons, spokesman of the International Christian Embassy in Jerusalem, which represents evangelical Christian communities, said the test would be how vigorously authorities pursued the case.

"We believe there is a link to a series of incidents here in the land that involve harassment, intimidation and physical violence," he said.

The Ortiz family moved from the United States to Israel in 1985, qualifying as immigrants under Israel's Law of Return because Leah, the mother, is Jewish. In 1989 they moved into Ariel, a Jewish settlement in the West Bank, and established a small Messianic group which now numbers 60, most of them immigrants from the former Soviet Union, according to David Ortiz, the pastor and Ami's father.

He said that he built the community through conversations with friends and neighbors, but did not actually go door-to-door distributing religious material to strangers in the traditional sense of missionary work. David Ortiz says he has also proselytized in the Palestinian areas - prompting Islamic leaders there to warn against contact with him. Ortiz said he had no problem if Messianic Jews discuss their religious views with others and persuade them to believe in Jesus.

When the family began holding study sessions, a rabbi warned Ortiz not to speak about Jesus outside the home.

In 2005, fliers were distributed in Ariel warning that there were believers of Jesus in the community. One day, two men wearing the black skullcaps of Orthodox Jews knocked on the door and photographed Ortiz when he answered. Recently the photo turned up on a flier with the family's address.

When the basket was left at the door Ami wasn't surprised, since it was Purim, a holiday when Jews exchange gifts.

"I opened it up and I heard it and then I was on the floor and I didn't hear anything, I didn't see anything, the lanky boy recalls."

Ami was in critical condition, with severe gashes in his legs and feet and one that just missed his jugular vein. His tryout for the Maccabi team was canceled.

His family initially suspected Palestinians; Ariel is in the heart of the West Bank and surrounded by Palestinian towns and villages and, like most Jewish settlements, has been the target of Palestinian attacks. But police immediately told him the bomb was more sophisticated than those made by Palestinians since it contained plastic explosives.

"Nobody ever suspected that a Jewish group would do such a thing, that they would put a bomb in somebody else's house," David Ortiz said.

Police have since told the family that Palestinians were not behind the bombing. The family has footage from a security camera of a man delivering the package, according to a person close to the family who spoke on condition of anonymity because police say disclosing details could harm the investigation.

Police spokesman Danny Poleg would not discuss the case, saying only that no arrests have been made.

Meanwhile, the Messianic Jewish believers are taking no chances. These days they worship under the protection of an armed guard.

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      1.   whose ox is gored? 06:25  |  potobac 20/06/08
      2.   Why? 06:37  |  Guy From NYC 20/06/08
      3.   Remember an evangelical pastor ran an Einzatzgruppe 07:50  |  Jewboy 20/06/08
      4.   Messianic nonsense 07:58  |  EGW 20/06/08
      5.   Jews for Jesus is dumb 08:00  |  Gili 20/06/08
      6.   the lies of the missionaries is enemy propaganda 08:03  |  Jewboy 20/06/08
      7.   a blood libel from the same people responsible for the old ones. 08:21  |  Joe Jew 20/06/08
      8.   Guy get your facts right! 08:42  |  Antony 20/06/08
      9.   convert or die? 08:54  |  mike davis 20/06/08
      10.   to guy 09:05  |  tom 20/06/08
      11.   Violence is wrong, but so are these people 09:18  |  AZ 20/06/08
      12.   campaign against messianics 09:35  |  Yakov 20/06/08
      13.   Jews behaving like nazis, shameful ! 09:48  |  Benjamina 20/06/08
      14.   Zero tolerance for violence and persecution 10:02  |  TW 20/06/08
      15.   new problems not needed 10:43  |  sweis Melbourne 20/06/08
      16.   Mike davis and the historical truth 10:58  |  A thinking Jew 20/06/08
      17.   Heinrich Heine 11:00  |  Henrik 20/06/08
      18.   you hit the nail on the head #16 11:06  |  Jerusalemite 20/06/08
      19.   Antony you are a dishonest fraud 11:10  |  just a Jew 20/06/08
      20.   Guy and antony two sides of the same forged coin 11:11  |  jennifer 20/06/08
      21.   323 how about zero tolerance for conmen too 11:13  |  A thinking Jew 20/06/08
      22.   #1- Jews never demanded the right to proselytize 11:20  |  Joey 20/06/08
      23.   actually one policeman is very keen to help them 11:30  |  Joanna 20/06/08
      24.   shame on you jews 11:37  |  nic 20/06/08
      25.   Dear Mr. Why? guy in NYC 11:39  |  Joe Sittizen 20/06/08
      26.   Amy stay strong 11:42  |  nic 20/06/08
      27.   Christian support of Israel should be funneled through the 11:49  |  Messianic Groups 20/06/08
      28.   Mayor Uzi Aharon 11:55  |  Benjamin 20/06/08
      29.   Is this how G-d`s Chosen People treat the 12:01  |  Aaron 20/06/08
      30.   Jesus/Yeshua was a Jew, Lived the perfect life of a Jew, without 12:03  |  sin. And "Jews" 20/06/08
      31.   they do not hate Jews, they do not like you 12:04  |  the pope 20/06/08
      32.   most of them are not even jews AND iot`s illegal to proselityze 12:11  |  yael g 20/06/08
      33.   Mike Davis (no 9) needs history lesson 14:06  |  Jackie 20/06/08
      34.   Benjamin # 28 14:07  |  Bar 20/06/08
      35.   Chabad are not missionaries 14:11  |  jackie 20/06/08
      36.   just think for a moment 14:13  |  me 20/06/08
      37.   Re 32 :Yael G: 14:40  |  Guy From NYC 20/06/08
      38.   Missionary lies? 15:05  |  alstoq 20/06/08
      39.   no different from any Jewish Israeli his age? 15:11  |  Jewish state 20/06/08
      40.   Israel & America? Not if Israel doesn`t do more about Orthodox 15:16  |  violence upon 20/06/08
      41.   only very small jews can feel threatened by this tiny group - 15:28  |  ivo 20/06/08
      42.   Hunters of Jewish souls 15:36  |  Pure Israel 20/06/08
      43.   israel mesianic jew 15:36  |  ariella 20/06/08
      44.   #39: These are Jews too, but with another view 15:37  |  Benjamina 20/06/08
      45.   #38 and lies 15:48  |  Jewboy 20/06/08
      46.   Supporting Israel while Israel is literally suporting these is 15:57  |  supporting these 20/06/08
      47.   Difference between Judaism and belief in Jesus 15:59  |  truth 20/06/08
      48.   The excuse me are u Jewish people are annoying to Christians too 16:03  |  Aphemia 20/06/08
      49.   Angry people 16:04  |  Tania 20/06/08
      50.   whats the problem 16:05  |  yaheskel 20/06/08
      51.   ARAB TERRORISTS BOMBED ORTIZ: HE HAD FATWA ON HIM 16:12  |  Ray Lasser 20/06/08
      52.   A lot of jumping to conclusions 16:34  |  Gee 20/06/08
      53.   When folks get upset 16:35  |  FOX 20/06/08
      54.   To # 1 and # 2 16:42  |  Yosef 20/06/08
      55.   Chosen people of God (not evident from these comments) 16:47  |  Matt 20/06/08
      56.   Jews, not Jesu 16:53  |  zionist 20/06/08
      57.   Betrayal? Provocation? Convert or die? 16:56  |  Paul Henzen 20/06/08
      58.   Ivo # 41 17:00  |  bar 20/06/08
      59.   alstoq 17:06  |  bar 20/06/08
      60.   Just lost my respect for Jews and Israel 17:10  |  George 20/06/08
      61.   wonderful example of religious tolerance 17:35  |  Murray 20/06/08
      62.   George 17:38  |  zionist 20/06/08
      63.   bar #51: it`s not the way to protect them - 17:40  |  ivo 20/06/08
      64.   To George # 60, oh please! 17:42  |  Itzhak 20/06/08
      65.   TO EVANGELICALS 17:57  |  JOJO 20/06/08
      66.   Terrorism 18:00  |  Don 20/06/08
      67.   WHAT`S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE;THE GAYS GET ALL THE PROTECTION TO 18:10  |  glenna 20/06/08
      68.   Messianic Jews 18:11  |  Elisheva Roos 20/06/08
      69.   responding to George #60 18:26  |  Jonathan 20/06/08
      70.   Our police are racist and so are the hate Israel crowd 18:27  |  Gee 20/06/08
      71.   bar #59: that`s only a result of rabbinical decrees from the - 18:40  |  ivo 20/06/08
      72.   Messianic Jews / Hebraic-roots Christians 18:50  |  Steven 20/06/08
      73.   Steven #67: you`re mistaken about the label - 19:11  |  ivo 20/06/08
      74.   kindling the "Light unto the Nations" to burn books 19:28  |  David 20/06/08
      75.   #43 - ariella 19:32  |  MichaelF 20/06/08
      76.   Apparently you are not Jewish enough 19:50  |  John 20/06/08
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      80.   Do not consume yourself 21:12  |  Voice of Thunder 20/06/08
      81.   let a thousand flowers bloom 21:16  |  frenz 20/06/08
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      85.   lu #78 fine but you are no longer Jewish 22:08  |  Gee 20/06/08
      86.   #82 - Chris Linthwaite 23:02  |  MichaelF 20/06/08
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      89.   # 82 Chris Linthwaite - `Son of God` 23:53  |  Paul Henzen 20/06/08
      90.   ivo #87 I have every right 00:04  |  Gee 21/06/08
      91.   #25 Joe-US/EU/UN/Church SHAMEFUL SILENCE on Persecution by Islam 00:24  |  Linda Rivera 21/06/08
      92.   Show some courage Haaretz 00:54  |  FOX 21/06/08
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      94.   #83 - rachel 01:01  |  MichaeF 21/06/08
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      96.   82- Lintwaite - not so true cris 01:52  |  JP 21/06/08
      97.   these are not real jews just cristians try to pass like 01:55  |  JP 21/06/08
      98.   these are not real jews just cristians try to pass like 01:56  |  JP 21/06/08
      99.   82 Crhis, he´s not God son 02:00  |  JP 21/06/08
      100.   82 Crhis, he´s not God son 02:01  |  JP 21/06/08
      101.   jesus saved me... 02:01  |  Akiva P 21/06/08
      102.   Yeshu saved me... part 2 02:07  |  Akiva P 21/06/08
      103.   Christian;Jew;Muslim etc. 02:27  |  Rozz 21/06/08
      104.   #73 WHAT DOES A LABEL HAVE TO DO WITH BEING BLOWN UP?HELLO;MUSLIM 02:35  |  glenna 21/06/08
      105.   Messianic Jews 02:43  |  outOfactor 21/06/08
      106.   useless people 02:52  |  Dror 21/06/08
      107.   Chrys lightweight 03:18  |  sweis Melbourne 21/06/08
      108.   #70 Gee - Most Alarming. Police EAGER to BLAME JEWS 03:32  |  Linda Rivera 21/06/08
      109.   outofactor 03:51  |  zionist 21/06/08
      110.   A real blemish on Israel 03:52  |  Nathaniel 21/06/08
      111.   #85 Gee - Lu 03:55  |  Tania 21/06/08
      112.   In order for Jews to accept Jesus, they have to let go of the 04:19  |  idea that... 21/06/08
      113.   Gee @ 85, The first "Christians" were Jews. Christianity is as 04:40  |  "Jewish" as 21/06/08
      114.   idea that...@#100 04:59  |  Akiva P 21/06/08
      115.   Holy Sh*t People 05:05  |  Paul 21/06/08
      116.   idea that...@#100 05:06  |  Akiva P 21/06/08
      117.   Overated 05:20  |  Nephtaly 21/06/08
      118.   prosyletizing?? 05:33  |  r 21/06/08
      119.   Gee 05:35  |  Nephtaly 21/06/08
      120.   Zionist 05:45  |  Nephtaly 21/06/08
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      122.   NON-MUSLIMS SEVERELY PERSECUTED in MUSLIM COUNTRIES (2) 05:47  |  Linda Rivera 21/06/08
      123.   ROZZ you are absolutely right, but the problem is.. 06:29  |  noor 21/06/08
      124.   When psychotic persons plead paranoia 06:42  |  Mark Lincoln 21/06/08
      125.   Linda Rivera: Im glad you use these as examples 07:17  |  Guy From NYC 21/06/08
      126.   JESUS CHRIST IS LORD 07:40  |  KATHY 21/06/08
      127.   No More USA Money For Arabs Or Jews 08:09  |  Nick 21/06/08
      128.   DoIf Messianic Jews Sss Jesus as God 09:01  |  Ronald Chavez Hassan 21/06/08
      129.   who`s a jew? 09:21  |  yaakov 21/06/08
      130.   Jews have always turned away from God 09:33  |  Matt 21/06/08
      131.   By what authority? 09:45  |  yaakov 21/06/08
      132.   violence 10:26  |  al 21/06/08
      133.   #130 11:00  |  Torquemada 21/06/08
      134.   twisting religious meanings 11:47  |  Dror 21/06/08
      135.   If christianity does not begin to adapt 12:02  |  Dror 21/06/08
      136.   # 134 Dror - Chistianity (and Islam) very much alive 13:20  |  Paul Henzen 21/06/08
      137.   Jews who believe that Jesus was the Messiah. 13:56  |  Simon 21/06/08
      138.   A shameful matter (to Gili from Montreal) 14:10  |  Shoshana Thomasson 21/06/08
      139.   Akiva P, got news for you, if your mother was not a Jew neither 14:30  |  are you. 21/06/08
      140.   "No known weapon against Love" AMEN!!! Simon 14:36  |  Virginia 21/06/08
      141.   # 126, JESUS THE CHRIST IS LORD INDEED!!! 14:39  |  Virginia 21/06/08
      142.   Messianic Jews= CHristians in disguise 14:40  |  Arthur 21/06/08
      143.   No. 2- Guy from NY-Don`t tell lies (see no 8) 14:54  |  Avram 21/06/08
      144.   Gee #90: I wasn`t trying to reconcile the two religions - 15:21  |  ivo 21/06/08
      145.   Paul Henzen: you`re mixing the terms a bit - 15:44  |  ivo 21/06/08
      146.   hey, all you confused heads - think in terms of ETHNICITY - 16:03  |  ivo 21/06/08
      147.   response to Michael #93 16:30  |  rachel 21/06/08
      148.   Who is the Abominable Slowman? 16:35  |  Press Ass 21/06/08
      149.   Can you be a Yad leAchim terrorist and still be a Jew? 16:46  |  Toby 21/06/08
      150.   Christian Jews 17:04  |  Leah Vanatta Fisher 21/06/08
      151.   Followers of GOD 17:11  |  Brod 21/06/08
      152.   Ray`s got the pointer 17:19  |  Leah Vanatta Fisher 21/06/08
      153.   So, reason with me for a moment, God`s Word is not for us 17:22  |  Non-Jews, And we 21/06/08
      154.   Instead of Who? maybe we should be asking What is a Jew 17:34  |  ??? 21/06/08
      155.   Paul Henzen #136: get off the high gound - 17:35  |  ivo 21/06/08
      156.   #139 Avram: Whos telling lies? 17:40  |  Guy From NYC 21/06/08
      157.   #60 George 18:53  |  Michael T 21/06/08
      158.   Advice to Slowman 19:05  |  Press Ass 21/06/08
      159.   #88 Paul Henzen 19:10  |  Boycott 21/06/08
      160.   J4J are not Christians 19:18  |  Boycott 21/06/08
      161.   Paul Henzen, the son of God thing #89 19:40  |  FOX 21/06/08
      162.   JO, We Christian Jews believe in trinity =1 God 19:42  |  Yaakov Sullivan 21/06/08
      163.   Boycott #142: you don`t know what you`re talking about - 19:49  |  ivo 21/06/08
      164.   Dror - True..the most advanced religion is Hinduism 20:06  |  Buddha 21/06/08
      165.   Torquemada 20:28  |  Matt 21/06/08
      166.   Yes, Israel a shining beacon of democracy in the ME 20:32  |  Shaun 21/06/08
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      168.   Haaretz` censors 21:01  |  ivo 21/06/08
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      170.   Simon @#137 21:22  |  Akiva P 21/06/08
      171.   zionist 21:46  |  outOfactor 21/06/08
      172.   Jesus = psychopath 2day he`d get medicated 22:31  |  RLG 21/06/08
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      177.   #78 lu you obviously never had much of a jewish education 23:15  |  A thinking Jew 21/06/08
      178.   Thanks Frenz #81 but no thanks 23:20  |  Shlomo 21/06/08
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      190.   Marriage Therapist 03:57  |  Nephtaly 22/06/08
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      193.   They don`t need no stinkin` police... 09:41  |  dyinglikeflies 22/06/08
      194.   # 156 Bar - `Nationality` and `citizenship` 09:57  |  Paul Henzen 22/06/08
      195.   # 156 Bar - `Nationality` and `citizenship` 09:57  |  Paul Henzen 22/06/08
      196.   Mark Lincoln, regarding Psychosis #124 10:01  |  FOX 22/06/08
      197.   # 165 Akiva P. - Other insecure religionists... 10:01  |  Paul Henzen 22/06/08
      198.   # 149 RLG - And people who believe they are `chosen`... 10:06  |  Paul Henzen 22/06/08
      199.   # 149 RLG - And people who believe they are `chosen`... 10:06  |  Paul Henzen 22/06/08
      200.   # 149 RLG - And people who believe they are `chosen`... 10:06  |  Paul Henzen 22/06/08
      201.   Paul Henzen jumps to confusions 10:34  |  Jewboy 22/06/08
      202.   Fox and a credibility gap of 2000 years 10:39  |  Call a spade a spade 22/06/08
      203.   Stuttering and spluttering:179, 180, 182,3,4,5 10:43  |  Joanna 22/06/08
      204.   #175 the point is they lie, cheat and do worse. 10:46  |  Olga 22/06/08
      205.   Look for the intention behind the act (1) 11:48  |  Indrani 22/06/08
      206.   Look for the intention behind the act (2) 11:59  |  Indrani 22/06/08
      207.   Look for the intention behind the act (3) 12:12  |  Indrani 22/06/08
      208.   No more USA money, Nick, 127 12:54  |  a Jew 22/06/08
      209.   Paul Henzen 13:19  |  bar 22/06/08
      210.   If the Orthodox sect is allowed to proselyte... 14:05  |  Ulf 22/06/08
      211.   Jews do NOT proselytize 14:40  |  jennifer 22/06/08
      212.   # 209 Bar - The only state with `Jew` on its ID cards... 15:24  |  Paul Henzen 22/06/08
      213.   #211 You should read the Torah... 15:58  |  Ulf 22/06/08
      214.   #113 Ancient Romans did not distinguish Jews from Christians 16:11  |  Ulf 22/06/08
      215.   Ulf, it`s you who are ignorant - 17:10  |  ivo 22/06/08
      216.   bar & Paul Henzen (& kudos to the courageous few like Naphtaly, 17:35  |  ivo 22/06/08
      217.   Haaretz` censors 18:18  |  ivo 22/06/08
      218.   214 forget Romans, the Jews certainly did 18:50  |  Another Jew 22/06/08
      219.   Ulf I have forgotten more judaism than you will ever know. 18:57  |  A young Jew 22/06/08
      220.   Ivo and the only judaism in prague is empty shuls and cemeteries. 19:04  |  Jewboy 22/06/08
      221.   Jewboy @201, Talk about the ultimate confusion!!! 19:06  |  Please understand... 22/06/08
      222.   Paul And Jewish ID.post number 212 19:15  |  Jew-girl 22/06/08
      223.   Paul..#209 19:32  |  Josh 22/06/08
      224.   # 221 miss "understood" 20:53  |  Jewboy 22/06/08
      225.   Jewboy #19: when were you last time in Prague? 21:05  |  ivo 22/06/08
      226.   Jewgirl & Josh - `Jewish identity` 21:10  |  Paul Henzen 22/06/08
      227.   #219 Roman wrote contemporary chonicles 21:33  |  Ulf 22/06/08
      228.   #223 Jewishness, sects and Israeli ID 21:42  |  Ulf 22/06/08
      229.   Ulf #227: no, no, no - 22:46  |  ivo 22/06/08
      230.   ivo keep blathering away 23:03  |  Jewboy 22/06/08
      231.   ph and acidic hate 23:07  |  Jew-girl 22/06/08
      232.   Ulf- sorry but the mishna predates your guess 23:14  |  A thinking Jew 22/06/08
      233.   ulf looking for excuses to attach his favorite labels, 23:17  |  A Bored Jew 22/06/08
      234.   In response to Paul 23:40  |  Josh 22/06/08
      235.   To ulm...Israeli IDs 23:53  |  Josh 22/06/08
      236.   ulf 214 00:15  |  potobac 23/06/08
      237.   Jewboy #230: thank you, Jewboy - 00:17  |  ivo 23/06/08
      238.   Jewboy @ 224, One often sees without, that which bubbles within. 02:04  |  Is it your own hate 23/06/08
      239.   How about Muslims & Hindus for Jesus? 02:36  |  Yaakov 23/06/08
      240.   YOU deny Messianic Jews to call themselves Jews! 09:15  |  Paul Henzen 23/06/08
      241.   Not me paul- Judaism 10:40  |  A thinking Jew 23/06/08
      242.   talking to paul and the wall 10:42  |  A Bored Jew 23/06/08
      243.   #236 i live a good part of my day in that period 10:50  |  Jewboy 23/06/08
      244.   Paul a deal 10:55  |  just a Jew 23/06/08
      245.   Jewboy, we`re all unspeakably impressed by your value system - 12:56  |  ivo 23/06/08
      246.   #236 Historical details 13:27  |  Ulf 23/06/08
      247.   #229 Certainty of uncertainty 13:37  |  Ulf 23/06/08
      248.   Ivo if you were unspeakable 13:45  |  jennifer 23/06/08
      249.   ulf misses the point AGAIN 13:50  |  just a Jew 23/06/08
      250.   ulf 246 13:58  |  potobac 23/06/08
      251.   Certainty of certainty.247 demonstrates ignorange 14:03  |  Joe Jew 23/06/08
      252.   sure, jennifer, actually only the haredi should be allowed here - 14:21  |  ivo 23/06/08
      253.   Ulf a disciple of potobac? 14:30  |  Another Jew 23/06/08
      254.   #251 Daily Talmud reader doesn`t know 14:35  |  Ulf 23/06/08
      255.   #250 Christian-Jews were indistinguishable for centuries 14:48  |  Ulf 23/06/08
      256.   Ulf #247: according to whom exactly, Ulf? 15:01  |  ivo 23/06/08
      257.   #256 First you deny, then you ask... 15:31  |  Ulf 23/06/08
      258.   Ulf #257: I was asking YOU about your sources - 16:26  |  ivo 23/06/08
      259.   # 241 /242 Leave the rest of us in peace then! 16:29  |  Paul Henzen 23/06/08
      260.   #259 You are right Paul 16:53  |  Ulf 23/06/08
      261.   Paul Henzen #259: don`t be too discouraged, Paul - 17:28  |  ivo 23/06/08
      262.   170 On eating Jesus flesh and drinking his blood, right or wrong? 17:37  |  Simon 23/06/08
      263.   Ivo no one is censoring you 18:37  |  Another Jew 23/06/08
      264.   Ulf and the fanatic sect of ULF 18:44  |  just a Jew 23/06/08
      265.   you can tell a paul by his friends. 18:49  |  Joanna 23/06/08
      266.   Paul and walls and insensitivity 18:56  |  Jennifer 23/06/08
      267.   #265 Misunderstanding? 19:01  |  Ulf 23/06/08
      268.   Another Jew #263: thank you, I was in dire need to be informed - 19:46  |  ivo 23/06/08
      269.   yes, ulf misunderstanding-yours 19:51  |  Joanna 23/06/08
      270.   #269 Don`t `help` Ethiopians erasing their culture! 19:59  |  Ulf 23/06/08
      271.   Ethiopians had only one tradition. 21:07  |  Joanna 23/06/08
      272.   #262 Wrong-drinking blood is clearly forbidden by the bible. 21:17  |  Sorry but... 23/06/08
      273.   another jew 253 00:41  |  potobac 24/06/08
      274.   another jew 253 04:24  |  potobac 24/06/08
      275.   #271 Ethiopian culture has been erased 10:37  |  Ulf 24/06/08
      276.   # 266 Jennifer - Get off your high horse! 20:38  |  Paul Henzen 24/06/08
      277.   # 265 Joanna - Limits of good taste... 20:47  |  Paul Henzen 24/06/08
      278.   A question for paul: 22:39  |  Olga 24/06/08
      279.   Paul and specious replies 22:43  |  Joanna 24/06/08
      280.   #275 and new depths of Ulfspeak 22:56  |  Another Jew 24/06/08
      281.   LETS TALK CANDIDLY,LETS BE HONEST. 01:02  |  RALPH TREFRY 25/06/08
      282.   # 279 Joanna - What the media here show... 01:16  |  Paul Henzen 25/06/08
      283.   prostylizing 01:16  |  Ralph Trefry 25/06/08
      284.   # 278 - An answer to Olga... 01:23  |  Paul Henzen 25/06/08
      285.   Who is Israel 01:44  |  Ralph Trefry 25/06/08
      286.   joanna re specious replies 01:46  |  potobac 25/06/08
      287.   #282 proof 02:29  |  Joanna 25/06/08
      288.   #282 and specious argument 02:36  |  Joanna 25/06/08
      289.   Ralph- pull the other leg it has bells on 02:44  |  A thinking Jew 25/06/08
      290.   Re your request; 273 & 274 02:48  |  Another Jew 25/06/08
      291.   Ralph #281 try telling `em that at passport control 02:55  |  Olga 25/06/08
      292.   joanna 283 04:47  |  potobac 25/06/08
      293.   # 272, Nobody is drinking blood, relax. We are drinking the 05:46  |  fruit of the vine 25/06/08
      294.   #285 well you sure shed enough of ours 07:12  |  Jewboy 25/06/08
      295.   Your hatred is way past "good taste" 07:46  |  Joanna 25/06/08
      296.   Potobac. If you do not understand 10:55  |  Joanna 26/06/08
      297.   do not blame the Jews 22:49  |  Deborah 26/06/08
      298.   Children of the second wife.Children of a better God? 18:37  |  Simon 27/06/08
      299.   Simon:- G-d is no poligamous person 23:31  |  A thinking Jew 28/06/08
      300.   Open your heart 20:38  |  Joseph 15/07/09
      301.   m-jews 07:18  |  jt 27/09/09
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