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Talk to him

By Mazal Mualem

"Marwan Barghouti is, in my opinion, the next leader of the Palestinians. I say there is no need to be alarmed, and that it is possible to talk about the possibility of releasing him. I would consider it. In my opinion, this move is legitimate, even though this person has been convicted of charges that are very grave and I don't make light of them."

This surprising opinion is expressed in an interview with Haaretz by none other than Minister of National Infrastructure Benjamin Ben-Eliezer: the man whose worldview is planted deep in the concept of security; who as defense minister at the height of the Al Aqsa intifada promoted the doctrine of targeted assassinations. Although he has not yet called Barghouti "the Palestinian Nelson Mandela," as Uri Avneri has, he does single him out as a relevant partner for a breakthrough in the peace process. Of all people, Barghouti, who has been imprisoned in Israel since April 2002, and is serving five life sentences on charges of murdering Israelis in a series of terror attacks he ordered in his capacity as head of the Tanzim in the West Bank.

"There is a kind of psychological repugnance among us when it comes to talking about Barghouti," says Ben-Eliezer. "I don't have any psychological repugnance of that sort. What I find repugnant is the future we are creating for our children. It is necessary to talk about everything and to examine everything, and to see what is good for the state of Israel. I'm looking above all for security. And if talking with Barghouti results in him leading the Palestinians in the direction of making Hamas knuckle under, then that is what counts."

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Despite - or perhaps even because of - the timing (ahead of the peace conference in Washington, when Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is declaring that Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) is a partner, Ben-Eliezer is trying to offer a different look at the Palestinian leadership. From his cell in Hadarim Prison, Barghouti influences everything that goes on in the PA, including the Washington summit, he says.

"In my opinion, there is a triangle here, whether or not we like to talk about it, that includes Abu Mazen, Salam Fayyad and Marwan Barghouti. This is a triangle as far as we are concerned. No one should think that anything can happen without Barghouti."

When Ben-Eliezer, a senior member of the innermost foreign policy/security cabinet (which includes right-wingers Avigdor Lieberman and Eli Yishai) expresses an opinion that until now was heard only from the extreme left of the political system, his statements merit special attention. "Barghouti, in my best estimation, is in fact the tough side of the triangle that wins a lot of enthusiasm and a lot of respect, not only because of the fact that he is in prison, but rather because of, as jargon has it, 'he is the cleanest of them all.' But you have to remember that we are also talking about a leader, who, even when he is a prisoner, should not be not be scorned and should be listened to. He is also the only leader for whom Hamas maintains a great deal of respect and I daresay there is even some awe of him in Hamas."

So Barghouti is our hope?

"I know that it is very hard to say these things. But precisely as a security person, I am saying that we must look 10 years ahead. We must make an accounting of how much longer we will continue to keep our children in a situation of 50 days of reserve duty a year, and until when we will be investing everything we have in the issue of security. If we spoke to Yasser Arafat, who is considered the greatest murderer of Israel, we have to look at Barghouti attentively, even when he is a prisoner. And we have to see how we hold a dialogue with him and how we find the opening through which the peace process will also occur. We aren't dismissing anything."

Reckoning of conscience

This past year, which was marked by Lebanon War II and the Qassams from Gaza, Ben- Eliezer sees as a formative one - a year of reckoning of conscience, in the context of which he has no hesitation about admitting that the disengagement, which he supported as a minister in Ariel Sharon's government, "failed totally. There is no cause here to prettify the reality. I pinned hopes on it and I said, now they will start to build some model of coexistence together and from here on we will be able to continue to disengage. But what is going on there is a civil war between Fatah and Hamas. There is no government, and if there is any government, it is a totalitarian government that is led by a band of murderers, no less and no more. These are clearly terrorists. People who stop at nothing, people whose every good morning is, 'Good morning, Israel,' with a few Qassams." Does Israel also have a part in the failure of the disengagement?

"Yes. In the disengagement there was one element that was lacking: that the other side agree. That is to say, that you had someone to whom to hand over this thing, and that there be an international guarantee. The unilateral conception not only did not prove itself, it is also something that must not be repeated. This was an experiment, I was one of the people who supported it and it has turned out to have been a mistake.

"We are a people who with our own hands destroyed dozens of settlements. We took thousands of people out of there, we looked at our children, who asked very hard questions, and we told them that this was for the sake of preventing bloodshed and for the sake of ensuring quiet and for the sake of ensuring coexistence and for the sake of choosing other alternatives, instead of the killing and the blood. And here we are in fact waking up into a far more bitter reality. Now it isn't exactly helping me that the Gaza Strip is cut off from Abu Mazen. It exists; it hasn't vanished from the map. It is adjacent to us here and I have to relate to it. I have to react. I have to do something."

Maybe that something is a military action?

"I am opposed to that. That has to be the very last alternative there is. When you go into the Gaza Strip you know how you are going in but you don't know how you will be coming out. You are entering a quagmire, and it is a painful quagmire. You pay a price for it and you have no certainty that they won't continue to fire from there on Sderot."

So what do you suggest?

"We have to go ahead and stop this thing. To touch more on issues that concern the civilian population itself. We have no alternative. There isn't a country in the world that would agree that the power station that provides electricity is also a bombarded target. There is no way that you shoot at the water pipe through which I am supplying you with water. They will not put an entire region under the threat of Qassams day and night, as we continue to sit quietly."

Facing reality

Ben-Eliezer regards Olmert's current diplomatic move without excessive enthusiasm. "Even though I am in favor of the diplomatic move and the dialogue, it is necessary to be cautious," he warns. "We must not blur the reality for ourselves, so that we won't suddenly find ourselves one fine day in a situation in which the Qassams are landing on our airport."

Nonetheless, his political forecast is quite calm: He does not expect elections in the near future and he thinks that despite the final Winograd committee report, there will not be elections before 2009. In any case, he sees no justification for dismantling the government as long as we are facing fateful security issues at our doorstep. Of Lebanon War II, Ben-Eliezer says that "there isn't the shadow of a doubt that the results of the war have led Syria to raise its head and have strengthened the Iranians. I am glad that Gabi Ashkenazi is the Chief of Staff and that Ehud Barak is at the Defense Ministry. Today the way the security cabinet is being run is different.

"When Ehud Barak is Defense Minister, he makes things difficult and asks questions and raises things in ways we didn't see during the past two or three years. I don't remember a quantity of security cabinet meetings like we've been having recently and this is by and large because of the fact that Soldier Number 1 is at the head of the security system. They haven't got a politician who asks questions and thinks about what is good for him in a photograph. Instead, there is a statesman who is knowledgeable in security doctrine, and therefore it is impossible to evade his questions. I think that even Ehud himself would not admit to the depth of the quagmire he has entered. At the moment Ehud Barak is doing sacred work."

Ben-Eliezer is wary of making explicit statements, but it is clear that these remarks are directed at a comparison between the top leadership in Lebanon War II and the current period when Barak has the role of "responsible adult."

So in fact Amir Peretz caused damage to the country's security?

"I'm not coming with complaints to anyone. I think that if Amir Peretz had chosen a social portfolio, he might still proudly be the chairman of the Labor Party today. But he chose what he chose. I can't complain, because both the prime minister and the defense minister at that time had no security background. It's as though now they would tell me to be the commander of the navy when I don't even know how to swim."

With respect to proximate and remote threats, Ben-Eliezer believes that "Israel must go ahead and look after itself. It has to continue to maintain the strategic dialogue with the United States, but it also has to be completely independent, because we are now facing a reality we have never known in the past.

"Anyone who imagines that our next war will be against planes or tanks simply isn't reading the map correctly. Our future war, is going to be a war of ground-to-ground missiles and mega-terror and commandos. We are talking about two fronts in parallel, and they are coordinated with each other. We are aware of the crazy acquisitions in Syria. A huge purchasing deal has now been completed, funded entirely by Iran. According to statements from Nasrallah, whom I believe, on the order of magnitude of 20,000-21,000 missiles. Let no one harbor any illusions - in fact we are talking about a system that in its range covers the whole area of the state of Israel."

Do you think a war is likely this year?

"We are doing everything we can to prevent the next war. But we are dealing with disciplines that do not always communicate with one another. The home front has become a battlefront. This is perhaps the most significant change. We have always said that we deploy along the borders. We are now playing with different pieces. And this is without my touching on the Iranian threat, which requires different treatment. Iran is not only a threat to Israel but also to the moderate Arab world.

"There is no doubt that [Iranian President Mahmoud] Ahmadinejad is intending the nuclear bomb not only for Israel. Although every morning he declares that his missiles and his bombs are aimed at Israel, there is no doubt that Europe is also included. But wonder of wonders, Europe is continuing to play its dual game. On the one hand it makes statements against Ahmadinejad and on the other continues to maintain trade, the deliveries to Iran, as though nothing has happened. And the most astonishing thing is that in fact Ahmadinejad has already recognized Europe's weakness. Apart from verbiage, there really isn't anything. Therefore it is important that we be independent in matters of our security."

This complex security situation sketched by Ben-Eliezer leads him to the conclusion that the government must not be toppled at this time. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert can relax. Ben-Eliezer also does not sound keen on keeping Barak's promise to dismantle the Olmert government after the final Winograd committee report is submitted. "That would be national irresponsibility, to get up and leave the government today. I was chairman of the party and defense minister and I left over a budget. And what happened with the public? Did it applaud me? Precisely the opposite."

But Barak has promised that he will act to bring the elections forward after the final report.

"We'll hear and we'll see what Winograd has to say. If you ask my opinion, this Winograd story is going to take many more months. Once it has been decided to send warning letters, it will take a lot more time. At the moment I don't see this government falling. Not during the course of this year. In my estimation, anyone who is talking about elections should start talking in terms of 2009. The strength is in in the weakness of the coaltion's elements. I don't see Lieberman or Shas leaving. I am certain that Bibi [MK Benjamin Netanyahu of the Likud] would die to get into the government.

Do you support his entrance?

"I don't see him as an addition. As chairman of the opposition, he is very strange. On the one hand, I am certain that he is dying to get in and on the other hand, he comes along with complaints all day long. What is clear is that without the Labor Party there is no government, and anyone who thinks that Bibi will come in if we leave is mistaken - he will rush into elections. Nor will Agudat Yisrael come in either."

Ben-Eliezer sees Ami Ayalon's entry into the government as a sign of its continuity. There is no great love between him and Ayalon. Ben-Eliezer does not forget that Ayalon accused him of all the ills in the Labor Party, but in the meantime he prefers to leave these things aside."

"I am very happy about Ami's joining the government. I think that this is an important addition, when a person who has fought against the government comes to the realization that at this particular time it is right that he join the government."

Have you forgiven him?

"I'm not angry. In politics I have learned two things. First of all, I hold no grudge against anyone. However, I do have a long memory. I don't forget."

And Amir Peretz?

"I think he made a very big mistake. Ehud Barak held out a hand to him. I think that if Amir Peretz connects with his inner truth, he won't be able to register any complaints about Barak. I know that Amir Peretz and Ami Ayalon had very big plans if Ami had been elected [chairman of the Labor Party]: cleaning out the territory and throwing us out of the ministries."

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1.	Joint ticket: Baghrouti and Yigael Amir	10:55	\|	Jeff Dahlmer	26/09/07

2.	Barghouti could be a good move	12:40	\|	Natallie Durson	26/09/07

3.	BEN ELIEZER SUDDENLY VERY VOCAL	14:09	\|	Robert	26/09/07

4.	BAD IDEA	17:29	\|	Shaka	26/09/07

5.	We have heard this one before, it name was Abu Amr Arafat Al-Kidw	18:06	\|	Genuine Tosefta	26/09/07

6.	The solution to all Middle East problems	19:18	\|	Genuine Tosefta	26/09/07

7.	To 6. Genuine ...	20:05	\|	:)	26/09/07

8.	More Insanity	20:09	\|	Tod Zuckerman	26/09/07

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