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Comments:  241
Last update - 12:44 26/11/2008
IDF killed wanted Palestinians despite court guidelines, documents show
By Uri Blau, Haaretz Correspondent
Tags: Israel News 

The Israel Defense Forces has assassinated wanted men in apparent defiance of High Court of Justice guidelines for such operations, according to operational briefings obtained by Haaretz.

The documents reveal that the IDF approved assassinations in the West Bank even when it could have been possible to arrest the targets instead, and that top-ranking army officers authorized the killings in advance, in writing, even if innocent bystanders would be killed as well.

Moreover, the assassination of at least one member of a so-called "ticking infrastructure" was postponed due to an impending visit by a senior U.S. official.
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Finally, Haaretz discovered that contrary to what the state told the High Court, assassinations were subject to only minimal restrictions prior to the court's ruling.

One case analyzed in Haaretz's investigation, whose findings will be published in full in Friday's magazine, is that of Ziad Malaisha, who was killed on June 20, 2007 in Kafr Dan, near Jenin.

On March 28, 2007, a meeting was called by then-GOC Central Command Yair Naveh to discuss Operation Two Towers. "The mission" said Naveh, "is arrest," but "in case identification is made of one of the leaders of Palestinian Islamic Jihad  Walid Obeidi, Ziad Malaisha, Adham Yunis the force has permission to kill them, according to the situation assessment while carrying out the mission."

On April 12, Naveh convened another meeting on the subject. This time, he approved killing Malaisha and "another two people at most."

That same day, two other discussions took place on the subject. One was led by Brig. Gen. Sami Turjeman, then head of the Operations Unit, who said that the operation must kill no more than five people in total, including the car's driver. The second was led by then-head of the Operations Directorate, Tal Russo, who approved carrying out the assassination even if there was one unidentified person in the car.

The next day, Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi convened a few top officers to approve the mission. These included his deputy, the head of the Operations Directorate, the military advocate general and representatives of Central Command and the Shin Bet security service. Minutes of that meeting show that Ashkenazi forbade the assassination if "more than one unidentified passenger" was in the car. Moreover, he said, "in light of the diplomatic meetings anticipated during the course of the week, the date of implementation should be reconsidered."

Leading jurists who were asked for comment said these documents show that the IDF is violating the High Court's ruling of December 2006, which held that assassinations are permissible only if the target cannot be arrested instead, and that "harm to innocent civilians will be legal only if it meets the demands of proportionality."

In a conversation with Haaretz, Naveh confirmed that sometimes no real effort is made to arrest a target. "If the guy doesn't put his hands up we don't ask questions, we immediately establish contact," he said. "I don't want to have people hurt for no reason. If I know that the guy is armed and is a ticking bomb, then I want him to be hit immediately without fooling around."

The IDF Spokesman's Office said in response that Malaisha, a senior Islamic Jihad operative who was planning terror attacks, was an approved target for assassination, but that during the operational planning, "all the ranks involved decided that if there was an opportunity to arrest the subjects, that alternative is preferable."

However, because the planning also revealed that arrest might be impossible without excess risk to the soldiers involved, "the option of striking the wanted men with the intent to kill was also planned. This part of the operation was planned as a 'targeted preemption' in every respect, in accordance with the restrictions and the conditions laid down by the Supreme Court. The planning was accompanied by legal advice, as in the case of other 'targeted preemption' operations."

"The option of arresting the targets was examined, and only when it became apparent that this was impracticable was the decision made to strike them," the statement continued.

Finally, it said, the timing of all security operations depends on diplomatic as well as security considerations, and sometimes these factors necessitate delay. However, "this does not detract from the operation's urgency or necessity."

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      1.   I don`t understand: Do you want more soldiers at risk? 03:59  |  shlomo 26/11/08
      2.   Killing "Innocent" Terrorists 04:24  |  UsedToPostHere 26/11/08
      3.   Much ado 04:27  |  Mr Ipp 26/11/08
      4.   Nürnberg-trial for all Nazi-Jews! 04:44  |  Beck 26/11/08
      5.   Whenever I think our countries are different... 04:49  |  Che Vive 26/11/08
      6.   Uri Blau spaghetti brains 04:57  |  Peter Williams 26/11/08
      7.   Futile efforts at damage control 05:13  |  Naftali Lavie 26/11/08
      8.   High Court 05:26  |  Simon 26/11/08
      9.   Israel`s state terrorists 05:33  |  Edithann 26/11/08
      10.   "Murdered" is the appropriate word 05:48  |  KenB 26/11/08
      11.   I Don`t Agree With Killing Innocent People But... 06:05  |  Yosemite 26/11/08
      12.   terrorists 06:18  |  jg 26/11/08
      13.   Shlomo abets criminals 06:53  |  Fed UP 26/11/08
      14.   Being a terrorist means getting killed 06:56  |  Avi 26/11/08
      15.   targeted killings 06:59  |  Shmendrik Nashashibi 26/11/08
      16.   Surprised? 07:03  |  Victor 26/11/08
      17.   Targeted Assasinations 07:20  |  JJ Gross 26/11/08
      18.   Playing nice with Islamic Jihad and Al Qaiada 07:20  |  Steve 26/11/08
      19.   The enemies of Israel ruined Israel?s successful defenses? 07:21  |  Jean Van Daem 26/11/08
      20.   Is there a problem here? 07:53  |  IW 26/11/08
      21.   Israeli Courts 07:58  |  Ron 26/11/08
      22.   documents 08:16  |  rut 26/11/08
      23.   documents 08:16  |  rut 26/11/08
      24.   On Definitions 08:21  |  Walid 26/11/08
      25.   IDF and High Court 08:30  |  DT 26/11/08
      26.   Um and imagine how many innocent lives the IDF saved! 08:31  |  Baruch Gold 26/11/08
      27.   Killing Terrorists 08:33  |  Jay 26/11/08
      28.   PLAYING NICE WITH ISLAMIC JIHAD AND AL-QAIADA 08:51  |  Steve 26/11/08
      29.   Walid 08:51  |  Yosemite 26/11/08
      30.   HAARETZ: Is Uri Blau abother Gideon Levi and/ot Amira Haass? 09:04  |  Vittorio 26/11/08
      31.   Not Quite 09:09  |  Joshua 26/11/08
      32.   The only good terrorist is a dead one. 09:12  |  Wise Saba 26/11/08
      33.   Occupation "kills" Tikkun Olam....... 09:13  |  Swss (Dino) 26/11/08
      34.   ITS ABOUT TIME SOMEBODY PUBLISHED SOMETHING LIKE THIIS 09:14  |  johnj 26/11/08
      35.   Re: Fedup`s trials 09:15  |  SDHD 26/11/08
      36.   Who could have any doubt that Israel is a gangster state? 09:15  |  Clickfool 26/11/08
      37.   Israels image has changed much in the past 10 - 20 years 09:16  |  Natallie Durson 26/11/08
      38.   so WHY aren`t these guys "wanted" men in israel? 09:18  |  eric 26/11/08
      39.   For NowBackToPostingHere# 2 09:18  |  Clickfool 26/11/08
      40.   The anti-Israeli nincompoops forget . . . 09:21  |  SDHD 26/11/08
      41.   Apparently, eric`s comprehension stinks 09:28  |  SDHD 26/11/08
      42.   Eliminating terrorists is part of tikun olam 09:28  |  Dani 26/11/08
      43.   IDF: GOD`S CHARIOT. WHOAA.. 09:34  |  indrajaya 26/11/08
      44.   For Natallie Durson # 37 09:38  |  Clickfool 26/11/08
      45.   For SDHD # 40 09:44  |  Clickfool 26/11/08
      46.   Indrajaya`s chariot 09:45  |  SDHD 26/11/08
      47.   Clickfool`s murderers 09:47  |  SDHD 26/11/08
      48.   #1 No, you don`t understand, shlomo 09:53  |  Johnboy 26/11/08
      49.   typical hypocrisy 09:53  |  potobac 26/11/08
      50.   #42, Dani, "eliminating terrorists is tikun olam" 09:55  |  Cipora Julianna Kohn 26/11/08
      51.   Israeli regime 09:59  |  Vernon 26/11/08
      52.   IDF killed wanted Palestinians 10:03  |  Ralph 26/11/08
      53.   Shlomo. "War like situation." No it is not! 10:04  |  Maureen Ann 26/11/08
      54.   #20 Yeah, there is a problem here, IW 10:06  |  Johnboy 26/11/08
      55.   For SDHD again # 47 10:06  |  Clickfool 26/11/08
      56.   Clickfool`s freedom fighters 10:10  |  SDHD 26/11/08
      57.   Thank You Natallie Durson #37 10:11  |  Maki 26/11/08
      58.   Maureen occupied with occupation 10:14  |  SDHD 26/11/08
      59.   Johnboy - unrestricted nonsense 10:15  |  SDHD 26/11/08
      60.   Johnboy - unrestricted nonsense 10:15  |  SDHD 26/11/08
      61.   Clickfool`s "law" 10:20  |  SDHD 26/11/08
      62.   Enough 10:20  |  Yakov 26/11/08
      63.   What a clickfool believes 10:23  |  SDHD 26/11/08
      64.   Yosemite 10:23  |  Walid 26/11/08
      65.   # 42 Dani and # 50 Cipora, obviously you don`t understand.... 10:24  |  Swiss (Dino) 26/11/08
      66.   Unsung Heros 10:37  |  Yakov 26/11/08
      67.   Nomenclature 10:39  |  JJ Burke 26/11/08
      68.   For SDHD, yet again # 58 10:47  |  Clickfool 26/11/08
      69.   Example Two 10:47  |  Yakov 26/11/08
      70.   Swiss and likes Empaty a little 10:53  |  Aby 26/11/08
      71.   Johnboy from Sydney 10:54  |  Michael Jacobs 26/11/08
      72.   Can you read, SDHD ? # 61 11:01  |  Clickfool 26/11/08
      73.   Walid`s executioners 11:08  |  SDHD 26/11/08
      74.   Ticking, tikun and newspeak 11:09  |  sh 26/11/08
      75.   to Maki 11:19  |  Harry 26/11/08
      76.   NATALIE.Primary targets by Pals almost always civillians 11:32  |  PETER SM 26/11/08
      77.   MAUREEN Killing Israeli civillians is war as is refusal to accept 11:36  |  PETER SM 26/11/08
      78.   No.64 Walid in Beirut 11:37  |  Samuel Smith 26/11/08
      79.   Burke`s question 11:42  |  SDHD 26/11/08
      80.   CHEV IVE Move quickly to Iran or to an Arab country 11:44  |  PETER SM 26/11/08
      81.   Natallie: only now perhaps USA will close Guantanamo 11:45  |  Israeli cititzen 26/11/08
      82.   JJ Burke - Only if you ignore the war 11:48  |  Michael Jacobs 26/11/08
      83.   Murder 11:51  |  Murray 26/11/08
      84.   For clickfool, yet again 11:54  |  SDHD 26/11/08
      85.   # 70 Aby 12:06  |  Swiss (Dino) 26/11/08
      86.   Democratic England has sold Tibet--now its China 12:13  |  Israeli cititzen 26/11/08
      87.   Rescue what still possible of law and order 12:29  |  H.H.M. 26/11/08
      88.   Clickfull and BS 12:30  |  Yakov 26/11/08
      89.   SDHD 12:37  |  JJ Burke 26/11/08
      90.   Johnboy # 48 & 54 An Occupation Does Not Terminate The War 12:39  |  Jeff Northridge 26/11/08
      91.   SDHD 12:46  |  Walid 26/11/08
      92.   Soldiers lives over that of terrorists 12:52  |  Ilan 26/11/08
      93.   this is to be recommended 12:55  |  Eddie 26/11/08
      94.   Samuel Smith 13:04  |  Walid 26/11/08
      95.   Jeff northridge 13:06  |  JJ Burke 26/11/08
      96.   MAKI Thank Hamas.Here are their views on children etc 13:14  |  PETER SM 26/11/08
      97.   Israeli haters use Israeli many problems to deny and conceal 13:25  |  Israeli cititzen 26/11/08
      98.   JJBURKE It is a siege and Egypt openly allows passage of goods 13:26  |  PETER SM 26/11/08
      99.   Israeli haters use Israeli many problems to deny and conceal 13:33  |  Israeli cititzen 26/11/08
      100.   Murray # 83 Murder 13:36  |  Jeff Northridge 26/11/08
      101.   Walid from Beirut - Ignorant squatters 13:53  |  Michael Jacobs 26/11/08
      102.   Peter SM 14:15  |  JJ burke 26/11/08
      103.   94 Walid the Terrorist Sympathiser 14:20  |  Samuel Smith 26/11/08
      104.   JJBURKE About 7000 Gazans got top medical care in Israel 14:38  |  PETER SM 26/11/08
      105.   Walid to borrow Samuel Smith`s words: Enlighten us 14:39  |  Margie in Tel Aviv 26/11/08
      106.   WALID All Israel has ever done in Lebanon is return fire 14:41  |  PETER SM 26/11/08
      107.   Killing culture of the tormentor 14:42  |  mehmet 26/11/08
      108.   MEHMET killing culture? 14:48  |  PETER SM 26/11/08
      109.   JJ Burke # 95 "Effective Control" Alone Is Insufficient 14:56  |  Jeff Northridge 26/11/08
      110.   Islamic Jihad legitimate candidates for IDF assasinations!!! 15:00  |  arthur 26/11/08
      111.   No, Mr. Northridge 15:00  |  Murray 26/11/08
      112.   More Leftist craps 15:01  |  Frank 26/11/08
      113.   Same as a burglar in your house, illegal to kill him, but.... 15:04  |  Harvey 26/11/08
      114.   Michael Jacobs 15:14  |  Walid 26/11/08
      115.   #109 Jeff, as always, wrong in the first line 15:17  |  Johnboy 26/11/08
      116.   Left retlings without regard for lives 15:18  |  TOMY 26/11/08
      117.   IDF killed the wrong terrorists 15:25  |  chaim 26/11/08
      118.   Clickfool and Durson... 15:26  |  Jasper 26/11/08
      119.   #90 More nonsensical claptrap, Jeff. 15:28  |  Johnboy 26/11/08
      120.   Margie in Tel Aviv 15:32  |  Walid 26/11/08
      121.   KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK 15:34  |  Robert 26/11/08
      122.   #71 I`m growing weary of this sort of nonsese, Michael 15:38  |  Johnboy 26/11/08
      123.   Peter SM 15:46  |  Walid 26/11/08
      124.   Johnboy - A cessation of Arab hostilities 15:48  |  Michael Jacobs 26/11/08
      125.   All clickfool`s posts 16:03  |  The Teacher/Instruct 26/11/08
      126.   like what is new--tell us something we do not know 16:07  |  Labhras 26/11/08
      127.   Walid from Beirut - Generous lies 16:08  |  Michael Jacobs 26/11/08
      128.   Out of control courts 16:14  |  Gee 26/11/08
      129.   Murray # 111 That Was Mr. Blau`s Opinion And Not A Fact 16:51  |  Jeff Northridge 26/11/08
      130.   Walid places in Israel have Hebrew names 17:03  |  Margie in Tel Aviv 26/11/08
      131.   we should learn from the US 17:17  |  Dan 26/11/08
      132.   peter sm 106 17:30  |  potobac 26/11/08
      133.   Walid places in Israel have Hebrew names 17:33  |  Margie in Tel Aviv 26/11/08
      134.   Jeff and the rest....... 17:40  |  rob 26/11/08
      135.   IDF killed wanted Palestinians despite court guidelines 17:48  |  Nehemia Levin 26/11/08
      136.   Johnboy # 115 The Occupation Of Gaza Ended 17:54  |  Jeff Northridge 26/11/08
      137.   Well, this is no news to anyone... 18:08  |  Silvienne 26/11/08
      138.   This is matter for the Commander-in-Chief 18:09  |  Gee 26/11/08
      139.   SDHD can`t read clearly... 18:13  |  Silvienne 26/11/08
      140.   Walid (#114) Yes, Yes we know we have been called worse 18:17  |  Gil 26/11/08
      141.   Johnboy # 119 Bull! 18:19  |  Jeff Northridge 26/11/08
      142.   Silvienne # 123 Chief Prosecutor Of The ICC 18:33  |  Jeff Northridge 26/11/08
      143.   Jeff Northridge 18:39  |  Bombaywalla 26/11/08
      144.   Why all the outrage? 18:49  |  Mark Lincoln 26/11/08
      145.   Johnboy # 115 More Help For You 18:53  |  Jeff Northridge 26/11/08
      146.   Jeff Northridge says Israel Lies 19:06  |  Mark Lincoln 26/11/08
      147.   IDF killed wanted Palestinians despite court guidelines, document 19:09  |  n_erber 26/11/08
      148.   Bombaywallah see it for what it is 19:13  |  NewYorkWallah 26/11/08
      149.   "Rabbi" Swiss(Dino) 19:14  |  JP 26/11/08
      150.   Just what we need, more prisoners 19:49  |  peter 26/11/08
      151.   mehmet 20:23  |  David Israel 26/11/08
      152.   For the "Teacher" # 125 20:34  |  Clickfool 26/11/08
      153.   Mark Lincoln is the one lying 20:39  |  Gee 26/11/08
      154.   #80 Peter SM, I`m under no illusions... 21:05  |  Che Vive 26/11/08
      155.   No one feels sorry for terrorists 21:22  |  Dave Duncan 26/11/08
      156.   Walid (#123) No one is trying to take the Litani from Lebanon 21:39  |  Gil 26/11/08
      157.   Walid (#123) No one is trying to take the Litani from Lebanon 21:40  |  Gil 26/11/08
      158.   Where is Lakshmi? 21:57  |  FOX 26/11/08
      159.   Matgie in Tel Aviv 21:59  |  Walid 26/11/08
      160.   #142, Jeff Northridge, loopholes, slippery slopes, excuses... 22:09  |  Silvienne 26/11/08
      161.   #152, Clickfool... 22:09  |  Silvienne 26/11/08
      162.   #159 Walid, please.... 22:16  |  JP 26/11/08
      163.   Mark Lincoln # 146 Israel Says No Such Thing 22:18  |  Jeff Northridge 26/11/08
      164.   Walid how flattering 22:37  |  Margie in Tel Aviv 26/11/08
      165.   #160 - Silvienne, how many is "too many"? 22:38  |  JP 26/11/08
      166.   # 41 no, you`re wrong sdhd 22:45  |  eric 26/11/08
      167.   # 149 JP (2nd try) 22:49  |  Swiss (Dino) 26/11/08
      168.   Winston Churchill 22:55  |  THE TEACHER/INSTRUCT 26/11/08
      169.   Israel bad reputation 23:05  |  arik 26/11/08
      170.   SDHD #58, occupied with denying reality 23:30  |  zeev 26/11/08
      171.   Silvienne # 160 The Relative Number Of Casualties 23:31  |  Jeff Northridge 26/11/08
      172.   SDHD #58, occupied with denying reality 23:32  |  zeev 26/11/08
      173.   Gil 23:37  |  Walid 26/11/08
      174.   to SDHD #61 23:47  |  zeev 26/11/08
      175.   to Yakov #62 - right you are 00:03  |  zeev 27/11/08
      176.   JP 00:03  |  Walid 27/11/08
      177.   Swiss (Dino) to JP 00:12  |  David Israel 27/11/08
      178.   No, YOU are wrong, eric 00:17  |  SDHD 27/11/08
      179.   # 173 David Israel 00:47  |  Swiss (Dino) 27/11/08
      180.   to Michael Jacobs #71 00:48  |  zeev 27/11/08
      181.   Clickfool # 45 00:55  |  Philippe 27/11/08
      182.   Israel shouldn`t be involved in this disgraceful killing to begin 01:02  |  Dutch 27/11/08
      183.   Basic point being -- eric 01:05  |  SDHD 27/11/08
      184.   Zeev being a fruitloop 01:06  |  SDHD 27/11/08
      185.   Walid and the Litani - perhaps a new censor 01:14  |  Mark Lincoln 27/11/08
      186.   teacher/instructor 01:19  |  potobac 27/11/08
      187.   re: SDHD 01:21  |  UsedToPostHere 27/11/08
      188.   #163 Yes, she does, Jeff. 01:22  |  Johnboy 27/11/08
      189.   to David Israel #177 - poor little Israel 01:24  |  zeev 27/11/08
      190.   to SDHD #178 01:38  |  zeev 27/11/08
      191.   #136 Wrong again in the first line, Jeff. 01:41  |  Johnboy 27/11/08
      192.   #141 Jeff, I think you need to get with the program 01:54  |  Johnboy 27/11/08
      193.   Dear "Rabbi" Swiss(Dino) 02:04  |  JP 27/11/08
      194.   Walid 02:05  |  JP 27/11/08
      195.   #159 Walid Hezbollah,Syria,or Lebanon Will Not Get Back What We 02:15  |  Israeli 27/11/08
      196.   #143BombaywallaStop Preaching here.Think Mumbay Tonight! 03:17  |  Israeli 27/11/08
      197.   The Entire Article Is Nothing But Full of Contradictions 03:22  |  Eli 27/11/08
      198.   The Entire Article Is Nothing But Full of Contradictions 03:22  |  Eli 27/11/08
      199.   CHE VIVE Yes you are.. 03:54  |  PETER SM 27/11/08
      200.   #137 Sillyvian 03:54  |  Jasper 27/11/08
      201.   wanted palestinians 04:49  |  salam cantor 27/11/08
      202.   Israel learned its lesson from KUNTAR 06:07  |  Carey 27/11/08
      203.   guidelines for killing 06:15  |  rm 27/11/08
      204.   Civilisations 07:08  |  Bill 27/11/08
      205.   #165, JP, you are behind the times... 07:14  |  Silvienne 27/11/08
      206.   rm`s guidelines 07:18  |  SDHD 27/11/08
      207.   #171, Jeff Northridge... 07:20  |  Silvienne 27/11/08
      208.   #168, on yer bike, Kathy... 07:21  |  Silvienne 27/11/08
      209.   #174, Well said, zeev... 07:22  |  Silvienne 27/11/08
      210.   # 178 sorry sdhd, but i`m NOT wrong... (2nd try) 07:25  |  eric 27/11/08
      211.   Dino 07:29  |  Cipora Julianna Kohn 27/11/08
      212.   when you`re one of the Chosen 07:29  |  T A Sheppard 27/11/08
      213.   WALID Israel is a world leader in water conservation,recycling, 08:36  |  PETER SM 27/11/08
      214.   SYLVIENNE time to grow up.Murder of Israelis is not romantic 08:47  |  PETER SM 27/11/08
      215.   AND YOUR ALL SURPRISED? 08:53  |  VIPER 27/11/08
      216.   to Yakov #69 - Twisted Example (2nd try) 09:05  |  zeev 27/11/08
      217.   to David Israel #177 - poor little Israel (2nd try) 09:10  |  zeev 27/11/08
      218.   Peter SM 09:15  |  Walid 27/11/08
      219.   #214, Peter SM talks about murder of Israelis.... 10:24  |  Silvienne 27/11/08
      220.   Walid (#173) & holding the Shebaa Farms 10:42  |  Gil 27/11/08
      221.   # 143 BombaywallaH 11:37  |  The Teacher/Instruct 27/11/08
      222.   to SDHD #178 - 2nd try 18:53  |  zeev 27/11/08
      223.   #213 Peter SM & Walid.(WHY DOES ONE HAVE TO REPEAT ASKING(3RDTRY? 20:28  |  KATHY 27/11/08
      224.   to CJ Kohn #211 - 3nd try 23:29  |  zeev 27/11/08
      225.   to PETER SM #214 - 2nd try 00:58  |  zeev 28/11/08
      226.   #220 Some corrections, Gil 01:13  |  Johnboy 28/11/08
      227.   # 224 to zeev re: an excellent post and link 02:16  |  eric 28/11/08
      228.   zeev #224 03:54  |  a 28/11/08
      229.   Johnboy (#226) When two Neighbors are talking do bud out 08:53  |  Gil 28/11/08
      230.   Johnboy (#226) When two Neighbors are talking do bud out 08:54  |  Gil 28/11/08
      231.   to "a" #228 & eric #224 09:26  |  zeev 28/11/08
      232.   more and more the IDF will be defending them self`s against their 20:17  |  glenna 28/11/08
      233.   I imagine this abuse is just the tip of the iceberg 21:19  |  Dutch 28/11/08
      234.   The IDF kills indiscriminately . . . 21:46  |  Maki 28/11/08
      235.   peter sm 213 22:55  |  potobac 28/11/08
      236.   peter sm 214 23:00  |  potobac 28/11/08
      237.   re: Dutch 00:01  |  UsedToPostHere 29/11/08
      238.   #229 The simple arguments of the simpleminded, Gil 01:32  |  Johnboy 29/11/08
      239.   re: Johnboy 06:34  |  UsedToPostHere 29/11/08
      240.   #239 A simple quiz question for UTPH 10:10  |  Johnboy 29/11/08
      241.   re: Johnboy 23:06  |  UsedToPostHere 29/11/08
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