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Questions & Answers A conversation with Ronen Bergman By David B. Green Tags: Questions & Answers, Iran  The Secret War with Iran: The 30-Year Clandestine Struggle Against the World's Most Dangerous Terrorist Power by Dr. Ronen Bergman Free Press, 432 pages, $27.95> Advertisement Much as we know that Iran's Islamic regime has long been engaged in conflict with Israel, both directly and through such proxies as Hamas and Hezbollah, reading Dr. Ronen Bergman's account of the ongoing clash is a sobering experience. Not only does Bergman, a journalist for the daily Yedioth Ahronoth, place the Israel-Iran relationship in context, he does so by way of many tales that have never been told before. Beginning with the overthrow of the Shah and the Islamic revolution, in 1979, Bergman's book describes how a relationship that had been characterized by close political and military cooperation, overnight became one of ideologically driven hostility on Iran's part toward Israel, part of Iran's larger strategy of spreading its particular brand of political Islam around the region and world. The bombing of Israel's barracks in Tyre in 1982 and 1983, and of its embassy and a Jewish community office in Buenos Aires a decade later; the unsolved mystery of airman Ron Arad, whose answer apparently lies in Iran's hands alone; Israel's arming of Iran after the revolution, and the mutual double-dealing of the Iran-Contra affair of 1986 (about which Bergman presents convincing evidence of the involvement of then vice president George H.W. Bush, despite his denials); how Israeli Nahum Manbar sold chemical-weapons technology to Iran for years under the nose of the Mossad-these are some of the book's "highlights," and they don't suggest that things are about to change. Bergman, today 36, has been working in journalism since age 12, when he began writing for the youth paper Maariv Lenoar. His army service was in CID Intelligence division; following that he earned a law degree at the University of Haifa, and his masters and doctorate at Corpus Christi College, Cambridge, writing his thesis on the history of the Mossad's relations with African intelligence agencies. He was a correspondent for Haaretz Magazine before moving over to Yedioth in 2000, and he is also cohost of the daily news magazine "Erev Hadash," on Educational TV. Bergman spoke with Haaretz by phone from his car. Q: How did you get your hands on so much classified material? A: There's a Hebrew expression that basically says it's immodest to give testimony about things you have done yourself. So I will only answer you in a general sense. I really do believe that journalism is the watchguard of democracy. From the start, I thought it was of critical importance to cover the Israeli intelligence community, and its place within the Western intelligence community. The importance of these organizations to our existence is profound, but they prefer to operate in the dark, not to reveal anything. Do you know that the Mossad, for example, reports exclusively to the prime minister? There is some scrutiny by the state comptroller, but even the Knesset is not permitted to read their reports. Second, Bob Woodward, in his book on the CIA, quotes a former director of the agency, who said that people always say more than you expect them to say. Third, journalists in Israel are afraid to deal with this subject. And for good reason. My subjects have tried to do everything to stop me. I've been searched, I've been interrogated, my phone lines were bugged, I've been threatened with trial for high treason, all in an attempt to frighten me and reveal my sources. But my mentor Uri Avnery says that a journalist has to operate without fear or favor, and for me that means you have to go as far as you can. I'm happy to say that in a good percentage of the struggles we've waged for information, we have been successful. Ninety-nine point nine percent of the material in the book has not been declassified, and there were a few cases in which I had to appeal to the Supreme Court to be able to publish it. Of course, there are things that have to remain secret, and that's why there?s a military censor. But that doesn't justify the fact that the intelligence community barely manages its own archives, and that it refuses to give access to or declassify anything, even after the requisite 30 or even 50 years. I discovered a case from 1954, of an Israeli suspected of selling secrets to an Arab country. He was kidnapped by Israeli agents in Paris, and on the flight home was given an accidental overdose of a sedative and died. His wife was pregnant, and was never told what happened. I was the first person to tell his son that the Mossad threw his father's body from the plane into the sea. At first the Shin Bet and Mossad denied it, then said they didn't have the file. Eventually, they admitted it and apologized. Q: Your portrait of Iran as a relentless foe of Israel does not seem to reflect a right- or left-wing point of view. It's as if you're saying, this regime is our enemy whether or not we want it to be. A: Politicians use Iran all the time because it's comfortable. It puts our problems in a different light: They say that there's a snake, and its head is in Tehran and its tail in Gaza. But it's not as simple as that. We would, for example, have the Palestinian problem even if there were no Iran. But having said that, the book leaves no doubt that Iran is trying to export Khomeini's revolution by creating and spreading terrorism, by subversion, and in trying to develop nuclear military power. Israel can't accept a situation in which a state whose leaders call for the destruction of Israel are at the same time trying to assemble a nuclear military device. They are a sophisticated, crafty, stubborn enemy, much more so than other enemies. This war has been going on for 30 years, and so far we're losing it. Khomeini, from the day he took over, on February 1, 1979, was speaking in a very direct and clear manner about the hatred ("karahia," in Arabic and Parsi) toward the Great Satan and the need to destroy the Little Satan. And I think that we, mainly the U.S. and Israel, found it easier to look the other way, and not the face the challenge of the threat. Q: It's a pretty depressing story you tell, one of never-ending war. A: Moshe Dayan wrote a book entitled, "Shall the Sword Devour Forever?" The answer is to recognize that we do have enemies with whom there's nothing to talk about. I don't, for example, see a situation in which we will be able to sit and negotiate with Khaled Meshal [the leader of Hamas in Damascus]. Yes, maybe to discuss a deal for the release of Gilad Shalit. But for him to recognize our right to be here, he would have to contradict the very principles of his organization, which says we have no right to a presence on holy Muslim land. And therefore, we have remove those parties with whom it's possible to arrive at agreements from the camp of enemies. There are many who fit into that category, but we should act promptly. Unlike others, I do not believe that time is working to our benefit. If we do not take these pragmatic and moderate secular elements out the circle of hostility, they will take up allegiance with the extremists. Q: So do you support the dialogue that Prime Minister Olmert has begun with the Syrians? A: No, because nothing can come out of it. What are its goals? The Syrians are looking for international legitimacy, and what can be more legitimate than talking with Israel? Olmert, for his part, is just looking for a way to divert attention from his problems. Bashir Assad knows he is negotiating with a dead horse. Q: But in principle, do you see the possibility of Israel and Syria making peace? A: In principle, yes, it is possible to arrive at an agreement with Syria. Assad is continuing in the tradition of his father, with one eye toward an agreement with Israel, and the other toward an accelerated arms buildup, alliances with Israel's enemies, and other dangerous acts liable to lead Syria and Israel to all-out war. Q: But peace with Iran, not ever? A: Let me be clear: I have no problem with the Iranian people. The problem is the regime. After all, we had an excellent relationship with Iran under the previous regime. And by the way, it was two Israelis, Reuven Merhav and Uri Lubrani, who prophesied the fall of the Shah. Nobody else saw it-not the CIA, not the Mossad. And Lubrani has said that the Islamic regime won't last. In the end, he will be proven right. But in the meantime, they're very clever, and very tough, and there's no alternative to fighting them. Q: Do you think it's inevitable that Israel will have to attack Iran? A: I think we're still far from a situation in which a military option is the only solution, very far. There are many more things that can be done with regard to international sanctions, and covert action, things that still haven't had a chance to prove themselves. And in any case, Israel doesn't have to be at the head of the pack here. At the public level, Israel needs to leave the work to someone else. If we have no alternative, and there's a sense that we've reached the point of no alternative, we have to attack, because the option of Iran being a nuclear state is, in my mind, not an option for Israel. By the way, I don't want to give you the wrong impression. I don?t think that Iran will use a bomb against Israel. That's the last thing they want. They may support suicide terrorism. But not for themselves, they like to be in control. Q: So why is it so important to them to have nuclear weapons? A: They want to make sure they can continue exporting revolution, without fearing that the U.S. will do to them what it did to Iraq. The project is their insurance policy. And their involvement in international terrorism is, in turn, their insurance policy against attack on their nuclear sites. They want any country that may be planning to strike their sites to know that they can be victims of terror attacks. Q: Do you see any grounds for optimism? A: The last year has had positive developments: the killing of Hezbollah terror mastermind Imad Mughniyeh last winter, the explosion at a Syrian chemical-weapons facility in July 2007 and the bombing of its nuclear plant last September, are a few examples that may suggest that Western and Israeli intelligence are recovering their ability vis-a-vis Iran and its proxies. Haaretz Books Supplement, September 2008 Bookmark to del.icio.us   'I didn't kill Rose' Rose's mother, grandfather request court delay autopsy of body found in Yarkon River. Israeli requests Israel asks U.S. for arms and permission to use an air corridor to attack Iran.

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