Subscribe to Print Edition | Wed., February 10, 2010 Shvat 26, 5770 | | Israel Time: 06:52 (EST+7)
Haaretz israel news English
web haaretz.com
Jewish World Haaretz Toolbar
Diplomacy
Defense Opinion National
Print Edition
Car Rental  
Focus U.S.A. Strenger than Fiction Business Travel Magazine Week's End Anglo File Books Haaretz Store  
with former Shin Bet chief Carmi Gillon

Former Shin Bet chief Carmi Gillon was a guest of Q&A on Thursday, May 19, 2005. Thank you to the thousands of readers who participated in this live event.

Gillon headed the domestic security service in the mid-90s, when rising Israeli political tensions over the Oslo Accords culminated in the November 1995 assassination of prime minister Yitzhak Rabin.

A few months before the assassination, Gillon warned that fiery rhetoric by right-wing figures was encouraging radicals and fostering an atmosphere of violence.

Gillon left the service following the assassination. In 2001, he was named ambassador to Denmark. The appointment led to a brief diplomatic crisis, after Gillon said that Israel might have to resume using "moderate physical pressure" to fight terrorism.

He is currently mayor of Mevasseret Zion, outside Jerusalem.


Former Mossad chief Efraim Halevy recently warned that Israeli Arabs could become a fifth column for a new Palestinian state, were one to be established. Do you agree? Do you think they should be expelled to the the West Bank, if Israel agrees to a state?
Ben Bedell
Orangeburg, NY, U.S.A.
Carmi Gillon:
I don't wish to contradict Efraim, but no, I don't think the Israeli Arabs will be a fifth column. They appreciate very much democratic values that seem to us here and in the USA quite an obvious thing, but for the Israeli Arabs is a treasure.
Some time ago, four former heads of the Shin Bet were quoted as saying that Israel should take far reaching steps in trying to make peace with the Palestinians. But during the intifada, the Shin Bet seemed to oppose gestures like lifting road blocks and allowing more Palestinians to work in Israel. Can you reconcile what seems like a contradiction?
Hershel Julius
Lod , Israel
Carmi Gillon:
Well there is no contradiction, the first and above all target of the Shin bet is to act against terrorism. On the other hand, the Shin Bet should advise the political leaders on strategic solutions.

And as it was in this interview, it means something that four former heads of Shabak [Shin Bet] believe that Israel should take far reaching steps towards peace and I believe that we contribute a lot for disengagement decision which was taken by Prime Minister Sharon two weeks after that interview that made a lot of waves.
Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever make a peace deal? What will happen if Abbas is unable to rein in the militants and another intifada breaks out?
Helen Jones
Liverpool, U.K.
Carmi Gillon:
I'm optimistic about making peace with the Palestinians. Maybe it will take another generation but neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians have any other alternative. We still have hopes in Mahmoud Abbas that he at least is motivated to live in peace, unlike the former PA chair Arafat. For the time being, he is not demonstrating the ability to act against the militants but we should give him time to gather his forces and to show his ability to rule the PA. If another intifada will break out, we already know what the answer would be. But I hope reasonable leaders can prevent such an occurrence.
How do you view yourself as a public official - are you working for the government, as a civil servant, or do you work for the taxpayers, as a public servant? (A similar question was asked by Robin from Miami, U.S.A.)
Sybil
Sussex , England
Carmi Gillon:
I look at myself as a civil servant who worked for the public all my life, but especially now since I have been elected as mayor of Mevasseret Zion. During my career in business, I was longing to serve in public positions (all kinds of them) and I want to do the best for the Israeli people.
How did you cope with the shift from the security establishment, which deals with striking at the enemy, to the diplomatic world, which relies on interaction with representatives of other states?
Derek Williams
Edinburgh, Scotland
Carmi Gillon:
The main problem in dealing with the diplomatic world is to show off for the media and public. I used my experience from 27 years in security to inform and to convince the Danes about Israel's interests and about the explanations for the intifada during my period there. It was a big surprise when I was introduced, on one hand, as the head of Shin Bet and on the other hand as the head of the Peres Center for Peace because when it comes to diplomacy you deal a lot with images. For ordinary people who don't know about the Shin Bet's opinions, this looks like a contradiction - but it is not.
How representative do you feel 'fiery right-wing rhetoric' is of the right, and what potential effect could it have? Thank you.
Gila Ansell Brauner
Jerusalem, Israel
Carmi Gillon:
The violent extremists need the support of ideological leader and the feeling that there is a big group that would support their acts. That's why politicians, rabbis and other leaders should chose their words very carefully and can bring a strong message without giving the extremists an excuse to justify their acts.
As the father of a 'lone soldier,' a young Ethiopian boy who walked from Gondor at age of 13 to Jerusalem and later joined Givati, and received honor after honor, and now is a police man receiving the same honors... Would he be 'acceptable' to live in your fair city of Mevasseret Zion?
Michael Arieli
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel
Carmi Gillon:
Of course, we would be honored to have many Ethiopian children in Mevasseret Zion, in our neighborhoods. Since I was elected, I have done much work for his community because I believe that Israeli society should treat Ethiopians much better. That doesn't mean that I am willing to accept unworthy behavior. I would relate to it exactly as I relate to such behavior from an Israeli native living in Mevasseret Zion. Sometimes you can go lose your mind and I apologize. Earlier, there were no resources to handle the Ethiopian community but as soon as I said something provocative, we were suddenly flooded with resources.
No one knows more than the Shin Bet that 99.9% of the Israeli Arabs are loyal citizen to the Jewish State and would not even come close to doing anything that would endanger its security. How do you explain that the consecutive Israeli governments keep treating them as a security threat and as second class citizens?
Ricky Mabjish
Nazareth, Israel
Carmi Gillon:
I agree with you. Please see my answer to Mehmet from Istanbul.
How will the Shin Bet be able to continue gathering intelligence on Palestinian terrorists after Israel pulls out of Gaza and the northern West Bank? (A similar question was asked by Dan Scott of Sioux Falls, U.S.A.)
Shalom
Brussels, Belgium
Carmi Gillon:
We should remember that Israel pulled out from Gaza in 1994 for over six years and that the Shin Bet had the intelligence solutions for the changed situation. How it is done, I believe, is top secret. But it can be done.
Dear Mr. Gillon
After the disengagement, will PA security forces be reliable, and even if they are, do they have the "know how" to prevent serious attacks against Israel?
Alexander Wojt
Stockholm, Sweden
Carmi Gillon:
I think that the PA security forces have the knowledge and the means to enforce order in the Palestinian Authority. What they still need is motivation to act against violence I think that if they have the motivation and will act they will show the whole free world that they are able to have their own independent state as part of the free world.
Hi Mr. Gillon,
What is your view on your appointment as Israeli ambassador to Denmark? I guess we [the media and some politicians] over-reacted slightly.
Thanks for your reply.

[Flemming Bengtsson of Copenhagen asked a similar question.]
Martin
Copenhagen, Denmark
Carmi Gillon:
Hi Mr. Martin! I think that at the end of the day I was very well accepted by Danish politicians, media and ordinary people. I even dare to say that I was a good ambassador for Israel and contributed a lot to the relationship between the two countries.

The reaction to my appointment was quite extreme but post-9/11 it totally changed after public opinion got the idea that terrorism is a kind of threat that should be treated differently.
Dear Carmi,
As a security official in Israel what do you think about Iran's nuclear threat to Israel? As you may be aware, Iranian Jewish journalist Roya Hakakian said in an interview in Los Angeles that an Israeli attack on Iran would be an insult to history. What do you think about this?
Reza Homam
Baghdad, Iraq
Carmi Gillon:
The Iranian nuclear threat to Israel is a serious one and it should be treated very carefully first with diplomatic means - as it is done nowadays.
Is there any reason to assume that the terrorist organizations will lay down their arms after the proposed pullout, when they openly say that they are dedicated to Israel's destruction?
Thank you.
Ovadyah
New York, U.S.A.
Carmi Gillon:
The pullout is an Israeli need and not necessarily a Palestinian need and it comes to serve the needs of Israeli society.

My opinion is that the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip should come to an end and my main reason is that I can see how bad it is for Israeli society but I would like to add that after the Palestinians have full responsibility and independence in all the territory in Gaza and probably afterwards in the West Bank they will take responsibility and start to build a normal civilian society.
Does the Shin Bet have a systematic monitoring program for Israeli Arabs? Israeli Arabs are very often treated in a discriminatory manner at the airports as they are frequently subject to long interrogations. Is this a decision by the Shin Bet?
Mehmet
Istanbul, Turkey
Carmi Gillon:
I just want to mention one thing about this. Israeli Arabs are the only Arabs in the world who live in full democracy concerning all their democratic rights. The Shin Bet for years believed that the Israeli policy towards the Arab minority should be to treat them equally. Unfortunately, this kind of policy was not fully accepted and that's why we still need to do a lot to improve their situation. I would like to mention that only a few Israeli Arabs were involved in terrorism and the vast majority of them live peacefully in Israel.
In your opinion, why didn't Yasser Arafat accept President Clinton and Prime Minister Barak's proposals in autumn 2000, and only afterwards start the intifada? Did he perhaps intend to honestly make a deal after all? Do you think the Shin Bet took this into consideration when it did its assessment of him?
Leopold Zeliviansky
Kiryat Tivon, Israel
Carmi Gillon:
We should remember that Arafat was forced to go to Camp David. He tried to do the best to counsel the convention. I think he had no intention to sign any agreement with Israel concerning the right of return and the future of Jerusalem. Arafat was a leader of a revolution who couldn't give up his ideology and the goal of conquering Israel. At the beginning the Shin Bet believed that maybe Arafat was willing to make the compromises but shortly after Arafat entered Gaza we understood that he was the same Arafat. Israel gave him all the opportunities to bring peace to his people and to our people.
Mr. Gillon, Where do you see Israel and Palestine 50 years from now? Will there be one state for two peoples or two states for two peoples, or will the chaos continue?
Abm Habibullah
Dallas, U.S.A.
Carmi Gillon:
I am very optimistic about the future 50 years from now because I believe that people - all kinds of people - would like to have normal lives and to live in peace. Probably, we will live in two different states - a Palestinian state and an Israeli state.
Is there a real danger that Jewish extremists will be able to carry out a successful attack on the mosques on Temple Mount? What would be the consequences of such an act?
Liz
Upsala , Sweden
Carmi Gillon:
Like during the disengagement from Sinai there was a serious group that organized to act against the mosques on the Temple Mount. Now we are facing the same threat of far-right militants in Israel. The consequences of such an act can be a disaster for the existence of the State of Israel and can bring a total war between the Muslim world, Israel and maybe against Jewish targets abroad.
What kind of role do you feel the U.S. should play in Israel's affairs with the Palestinians? Does Israel have much a choice in the role the U.S. chooses to play?
Ilan
Houston, U.S.A.
Carmi Gillon:
The role of the U.S. is very important for peace and stability in the Middle East. The U.S. should be an honest broker as it was during the Oslo period.
Is there a danger of another assassination attempt on the prime minister? What would happen to the pullout plan Sharon is murdered? (A similar question was asked by Roni from Porto Alegre, Brazil)
Andre S
Naples, Italy
Carmi Gillon:
There is a danger of another assassination attempt on the prime minister. I think that's a strategic threat to the whole Israeli society. I am sure all what needs to be done is being done to prevent this.
Mr. Gillon,
In light of Hamas' strong showing in Palestinian elections, do you believe that Israel will ever be able to make peace with the Palestinians without the support of Hamas leaders?
Adam Feit
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
Carmi Gillon:
Of course I would welcome Hamas as a partner for a peace agreement with the Palestinians but unfortunately this is an unrealistic wish. It won't happen because of ideological and religious reasons and the motivation of Hamas against any Jewish presence in the Holy Land.
Mr. Gillon,
Can you comfortably and without any bias predict how long the U.S. will stay in Iraq? And, most importantly, won?t Israel stand to lose much if Iraq remains extremely unstable and major source of terrorism in the next 10 years, regardless of a U.S. presence?
Bhawan
Washington D.C., U.S.A.
Carmi Gillon:
The U.S. will stay in Iraq until there is stability imposed by the appointed government. Despite the current situation in Iraq, Iraq is much less threat to Israeli security than during the days of Saddam Hussein.
Related articles
* Gillon is not a private matter
* ADL joins condemnation of Gillon for slurs on Ethiopians
Questions
Former Mossad chief Efraim Halevy recently warned that Israeli Arabs could become a fifth...
Some time ago, four former heads of the Shin Bet were quoted as saying that Israel should...
Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever make a peace deal? What will happen if...
How do you view yourself as a public official - are you working for the government, as a...
How did you cope with the shift from the security establishment, which deals with...
How representative do you feel 'fiery right-wing rhetoric' is of the right, and what...
As the father of a 'lone soldier,' a young Ethiopian boy who walked from Gondor at age of...
No one knows more than the Shin Bet that 99.9% of the Israeli Arabs are loyal citizen to...
How will the Shin Bet be able to continue gathering intelligence on Palestinian...
Dear Mr. Gillon After the disengagement, will PA security forces be reliable, and even...
Hi Mr. Gillon, What is your view on your appointment as Israeli ambassador to Denmark?...
Dear Carmi, As a security official in Israel what do you think about Iran's nuclear...
Is there any reason to assume that the terrorist organizations will lay down their arms...
Does the Shin Bet have a systematic monitoring program for Israeli Arabs? Israeli Arabs...
In your opinion, why didn't Yasser Arafat accept President Clinton and Prime Minister...
Mr. Gillon, Where do you see Israel and Palestine 50 years from now? Will there be one...
Is there a real danger that Jewish extremists will be able to carry out a successful...
What kind of role do you feel the U.S. should play in Israel's affairs with the...
Is there a danger of another assassination attempt on the prime minister? What would...
Mr. Gillon, In light of Hamas' strong showing in Palestinian elections, do you believe...
Mr. Gillon, Can you comfortably and without any bias predict how long the U.S. will...
Previous guests
Jerrold Kessel and Pierre Klochendler
National Union MK Binyamin Elon
U.K. Ambassador Simon McDonald
Housing Minister Isaac Herzog
Chief Reserves Officer Ariel Heimann
Former Shin Bet chief Carmi Gillon
Ex-Mossad chief Efraim Halevy
Mina Teicher on the U.K. academic boycott
Likud anti-pullout leader Uzi Landau
Diplomatic affairs analyst Akiva Eldar
Meimad MK Rabbi Michael Melchior
Haaretz Mideast commentator Zvi Bar'el
IDF Infantry and Paratroops head Yossi Hyman
Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom
Education Minister Limor Livnat
Ta'al MK Ahmed Tibi
Malcolm Hoenlein Conf. of Presidents
WJC Chairman Israel Singer
Former FM Shlomo Ben-Ami
Yahad chairman Yossi Beilin
ADL Director Abraham Foxman
Former PM Ehud Barak
NRP leader Effi Eitam
Deputy PM Ehud Olmert
Min. for Jerusalem Natan Sharansky