The cognoscenti and celebrities of Jerusalem have been extremely busy in anticipation of "Jerusalem Day," which falls next week. Producers, journalists, researchers, demogogues, rabbis and those who predict the messiah will come are all preparing for their great moment, the day on which the conquest of East Jerusalem in the 1967 war is marked.
Once upon a time, when the idea was conceived to add this day to the calendar, already overloaded with patriotic memorial days, it was known as "Jerusalem Liberation Day." But it soon became clear that this name was false and cynical; the liberation meant subordination of the Arab population and the day became a day of mourning for one-third of the city's residents.
Then they began calling it "Jerusalem Unification Day," until the intifada arrived and tore asunder the illusion of "unity." By default, the present banal name, "Jerusalem Day," remained, but the event itself is not as neutral as its name: it is an expression of antagonism and xenophobia, a chance to hold arcane ceremonies of allegiance and to nurture nationalistic and religious myths.
It appears that the task of the cognoscenti and celebrities is becoming more and more difficult: as it grows more routine, the day is in danger of drowning in a deep yawn of boredom; and indeed, what innovations can one make after almost 40 years? Perhaps it is no coincidence that the only secular group that celebrates in the streets of Jerusalem - in addition to the parades by religious zealots - are the "pioneers" of the kibbutzim and moshavim. An organization that lives on its past glory and present-day trading in real estate salutes a city that is locked in the dream of its past grandeur and present misery. Even its sacred anthem is derived from a Basque folk tune. Only a city where boredom, apathy and insensibility reign supreme could tolerate the nonfunctioning of its mayor who, since he was elected two years ago, has evaporated into thin air.
But why seek comparisons from the field of psychology when the statistical data clearly speak for the extent of disappointment and weariness from the "Jerusalem syndrome:" the number of people leaving the city - young, secular and professional people - is continually growing. The civic leaders chase after those disenchanted Jerusalemites and attempt to hold them back by extending the municipal borders of the city to include all the satellite suburbs that the escapees have set up.
Political constraints make it imperative to employ only selective annexation steps: in the west of the city, within Israel's sovereign boundaries, municipal areas are annexed by administrative means, and in the east, in the West Bank, "settlement blocs" are expanded by expropriating lands. At the same time, a terrifying separation wall is being set up, tearing the urban fabric of the Palestinian city and warping the joint metropolitan layout.
Fast train lines to Tel Aviv and Modi'in, "ring roads" with tunnels and bridges, giant construction initiatives, haphazard Palestinian building aimed at saving lands earmarked for expropriation, will turn a giant area stretching from Modi'in and Beit Shemesh to the outskirts of Jericho, and from Ramallah to the outskirts of Hebron, into a gargantuan metropolis. In this huge urban space, chaotic planning, an irreconcilable national struggle for hegemony over the physical space and chronic violence will prevail.
In this grotesque expansion of Jerusalem lies the dynamic of collapse from within the "eternal city," for the absurdity of spreading Jerusalem's holy spirit over hundreds of kilometers and more than one million people will become apparent even to the most zealous Jew or the most extreme Muslim. The city administration will not be capable of running the strife-torn area and numerous Israelis will ask why they need to deal with hundreds of thousands of people who do not want to be ruled by them and to pay for expensive services for them.
These questions are already being raised, even among Likud supporters, and they spur people to distance themselves from the old myths. It is possible to foresee a slow process of shedding the myths of the past about the eternal city. It will not be long before the phrase, in Hebrew and Arabic, "Jerusalem, the holy city," will once again be applied to the original site - the Old City and what is known as "the Holy Basin." This area will turn into a museum-like "heritage site," a center for pilgrims and tourists that will be administered jointly by representatives of the communities involved.
Attempts to use the name of Jerusalem to fan religious and nationalistic sedition will not succeed because the residents will no longer believe in the heroic illusions associated with this name. The remainder of the metropolitan area, which will gradually peel off from the city's core, will be conflict-ridden and difficult to govern but those responsible for it will, at least, be free of the need to cope with the heavy burden of the tragic past connected with the name of Jerusalem, which paints every temporal problem with a hallowed tint.
Perhaps here we can find an important lesson: Jerusalem's name must not be taken in vain; the distinctive problems of the holy city must be isolated from the temporal problems that exist also in other cities, and woe unto those who try to turn a faulty traffic light in Jerusalem into a cosmic problem. The weariness from Jerusalem can only strengthen this insight.
What you think
i frankly have no time for mr benevisti.he is a poseur. for the sake of the state all east jerusalem where the opposition is the majority should be given back forthwith.these 240000 or 280000 will be a hazard to the sate.
richard,
ludlow,
england
My Jerusalem is the old city, the holy city, whatever surrounds it is either existing Palestinian villages, Jewish neighberhoods, settlements or dstroyed Palestinian villages that used to be caled the villages of the jurisdiction of Jerusalem.These areas are not Jerusalem. For the deeply routed Jerusalemites, even Silwan was considered a village, and its people were considered villagers and not Jerusalemites. My Jeruslem is sacred to the Jews, Christians and Moslems and should be open an open city for every person in the world. It should be everybody's Jerusalem. and for everybody to heve it, it should be ruled by the world body. The other areas that inflate the city should be treated based on a political agreement and not land theft. There are one million Palestinian refugees who originate from the Jerusalem villages west of the city. There villages are mostly destroyed, but they know where it existed, they can identify the ruins, they dream of rebuilding it. There will never allow any body to burry their dreams, neither Bush, Abbas or Sharon. Real peace will only take place when these villagers have justice.
B. Michaels,
this Canannite built city was built few thousands years ago by the same people whom are now living as "Hazard" to the Zionist state as one poster pointed out! was liberated, interestingly more than once form foreign occupaiton, mostly Europeans, it will keep its demeanors and charactor no matter how many Euorpeans (this time Jews) live in it, it will ,one day, become free Arab-Canaanite city.
Yaroshelime, as we named it, will regain its hollyness and glory under the Arab rule, not the occupuiers.
Peace to you: Yaroshelime
Ahmad Abouali,
nablus, Palestine,
Well said B. Michaels.
Irish Sensation,
If 700,000 left during the entire war, how can there be 1 million just from the west of Jerusalem? There are probably no more than 200,000 left from the original dispersion of 1948, a fraction of that from the Jerusalem area. The "return" idea is just a way to obliterate Israel, another arrow in a quiver/arsenal of options. It's a non-starter, even if it's a "dream". The only "return" is going to be to a Palestinian state or confideration with Jordan.
Shai,
Israel,
Poor Meron he sounds so boring that I got bored and had a very difficult time forcing myself to finish to the end to see what they hey is the punch line! to wake Meron up I would like to seek his opinion re Yasir Arafat the Noble Peace Prize winner who stated:
"Abraham was neither Jewish nor a Hebrew, but was simply an Iraqi. The Jews have no right to claim part of the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron, Abraham's resting place, as a synagogue. Rather, the whole building should be a mosque." (Yasir Arafat, quoted in the Jerusalem Report, Dec. 26, 1996)
"The Palestinian Authority is now claiming that Rachel's Tomb in Bethlehem is the traditional tomb of the Cushite servant of Mohammed." (Ha'aretz, Oct.9, 1996)
"That is not the Western Wall at all, but a Moslem shrine." (Yasir Arafat, quoted in Ma'ariv, Oct. 11, 1996)
"The people of Israel realize perfectly well that they have no temples or ruins near Al Aqsa Mosque. According to the Koran, the people of Israel lived somewhere to the west of Bethlehem...they were living in Bethlehem and not in Jerusalem." (Sheikh Ismail Jamal, the PLO's Director of the Islamic Wakf in Jericho, quoted in the Chicago Jewish Sentinel, May 18, 1995)
Arafat once "convened a conference of the international press to claim that an imprint of an ancient Judean coin on the Israeli 10-agorot coin was Israel's imperialistic expansion map. This coin, he said, shows that Israel plans to conquer Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and parts of Egypt and Saudi Arabia." (Jerusalem Post, Feb. 22, 1995)
"... 'Netanyahu's Plan' completely matches the foundations of the greater Zionist plan which is organized according to specific stages that were determined when the Protocols of the Elders of Zion were composed and when Herzl along with Weizmann traveled around the world in order to determine the appropriate location for the implementation of this conspiracy." (article in the official PA newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadeeda, November 30, 1997).
Do I see Meron waking up?
Yardena,
Haifa,
In Egypt, with the help of the UNESCO, the whole of the Abu Simbel Temple was moven a few kilometers to allow for the creation of the Aswan Dam and lake Nasser.
What will happen if, with the help of the international community, all relegious sites in Jerusalem are "moved" a little to the East and West. Do Jews and Muslims consider the "structures" themselves to be sacred only, or the exact "land" they are built upon? (or both??) Does relegion (Judaism / Islam) provide these answers?
What if the land where the Jewish and Muslim relegious sites was turned into a big, beautiful peace garden, and all "relegious" sites were flanking it from all sides?
Maybe I am just dreaming here, but I know that it can "technically" be done. But, can it be done "relegiously"?
just visiting,
If you had $100's gaining interest in the bank since 1948, how much do you expect your money to be today? People marry, have children and grow in numbers, just like money. 20% of all Palestinian refugees originate from West Jerusalem Villages. If the refugees total number today is around 5 million. Then by simple multiplication you will get the 1. Million figure.
B. Michaels,
Jerusalem is in no way a unified city. Sadly, this could have been avioded if the residents of east jerusalem were given more than just an ID card and temporary residence status. The whole arab population of east jerusalem is alientated because they are subject to laws of a state they have absolutely no democratic rights in, except the right to pay endles amounts of taxes to a state that considers them a demographic threat that must be dealt with. East Jerusalem has the highest Arnona (property tax) rates in the country, yet receive only a fraction of the municipal services provided to other (Jewish) parts of Jerusalem. Indeed, anybody with just a bit of memory an decency will recognize that this phenomenon of expecting the arab population (and with that I refer only to West Bank, Gaza and Jerusalem residents) to pay taxes, and abide by the laws of a government they have absolutely no say in is the underlying factor behind the first intifada. It is absolutely absurd that most Jewish Israelis agree to implement a separate set of laws and standards to residents of the occupied territory, and then sit around and wonder where the hell this "Palestinian" Nationality came from.
The equation is clear, whenever you put a bunch of people together, treat them all using differential standards than you use for yourself, and you will witness the creation of a separate identity. In this case, it was Palestinians. Yes, the greatest joke of the century is that Israel, with its zionist vision dictating its laws and standards, has created the Palestinian Nationality, and is now biting its nails in regret!
Tareq,
Jerusalem,
Yardina, was Abraham Jewish? How could he be Jewish when The Torah and the Israelites appeared many many years after him? Next time you will tell us that God himself is Jewish.
Besides, All Israelite Prophets are Muslim prophets as well. Abraham is also the father of Northern Arabs. You have no more right to Abraham or Moses..or Aaron, or Joseph, or Yuna..than us Muslims. They are our prophets and saints, too.
Besides, this is not a matter of blood relation. ..or tribal loylaty. It is rather a matter of following the ideals of these great men, the ten commandements...etc.
As far as I am concerned, your settler friends who steal Palestinian olive crops and who poison Palestinian wells and cisterns and grazing land are not following the ten commandements...this is unless you believe that these commandments apply only to Jews...as some Rabbinic authorities unfortunately believe.
On this occasion, I would like to salute Reform and Conservative Jews who give the ten commandments a universal application. They are most certainly closer to the real spirit of the Torah..than those parochial and close-minded rabbis.
Khalid
Khalid Amayreh,
Many are those that have tried to conquer Jerusalem and keep it for themselves. So far it hasn't worked and the reason is rather obvious. Jerusalem can't be claimed by just the one religion because it is holy to all three major religions. A shared Jerusalem would be the solution, just as a Jewish attempt to hold on to it would be the problem and the recipe for another hundred years of fighting until it is shared.
A shared Jerusalem would see the world recognize the Jewish part as the capital of Israel and move their embassies to it and the same for the Muslim part, for Palestine. The loonies could move the suburbs and wait for Jesus to arrive to make them all into good little Christians, beause after all that is what the evangelists support is all about. True Christians however would like to see Jews stay Jews in a shared Jerusalem.
Johanes Franzen,
Stockholm,
Sweden
"Yaroshelime, as we named it, will regain its hollyness and glory under the Arab rule, not the occupuie
If you really are Ahmad Abouali from Nablous who's email address starts with Ahmadabouali@ then I am quite surprised... I though that you were a One-State solution partisan. As far I understand , the meaning of such a solution is that there is no "Arab" rule , no "Jewish" rule and no "Christian" rule but a common one. Did you change position and favor an other solution now ( "Arab rule/ supremacy " ) or did you , without taking care , reveal the cards you were hiding ?
If you are not this Ahmad Abouali, then don't bother to answer.
Maze?,
Tel Aviv ,
SharonLand
East Jerusalem was not granted to the Arabs under partition. On May 28, 1948 Eastern Jerusalem and the Jewish Quarter of the Old City fell to the Jordanian Legionnaires. It must be noted, that Israel did not attack one neighbor thus the aggression was 100% on the Arab's side after England left the Jewish Homeland on May 14, 1948. So many colonial Muslim land thieves are living in houses in East Jerusalem that Jews built before 1948.
I am for a Just peace. All Muslims and their children that did not live in East Jerusalem, must be deported back to where they came from. The Arabs have no right to steal Jewish land. Funny that in 1948, the world let the Arabs expell Jews from Jerusalem, but in 1967 Israel was too stupid to return the favor to the Colonial Muslim land thieves.
G-d willing one day the Cancer of a colonial people in Jerusalem will be ended and the True Owners the Jews, will be the only ones living in the Holy City of Jerusalem. Funny when Jordan colonized Jerusalem why didn't she make it her capital? Is Amman more holy and beautiful than Jerusalem? We all know that the Jerusalem is not holy to the Muslims, that is where they stick their rear ends to when they pray, for they turn to Mecca. (My dear arab cousins, you see I am a Jew who knows the turth.)
Steven,
VSL,
I can't think there are going to be many tourists in years to come wanting to visit a boring monolithic Jewish-only, shomer shabbat, glat kosher, yeshiva filled city with all its historic Palestinian buildings destroyed and replaced by eye-sore Israeli architecture (with a small 'a'). A few American Zionists maybe, who cannot understand the beauty of cultural diversity.
accessol,
Spelthorne,
England
Mr. Benvenisti is generally quite explicit in his political opinions, but this time, either I don't understand the central thrust of his article, or he has resigned himself to the annexation of East Jerusalem and all the new Jewish neighborhoods to the North, South and East of Jerusalem.
Yonatan,
Kefar-Sava,
Israel
Khalid, it seems you're not only content with spewing hatred towards Israel, you're now trying to make Judaism out to be a pack of lies. Abraham was Jewish whether you like it or not, just like Jerusalem is Jewish....and will remain to be so. Jerusalem was the capital of ancient Israel before it was conquered and stolen by Arabs. The Old City was liberated in 1967 - not "conquered". Looks like if the "Palestinians" were actually to start telling the truth (which will never happen) they will have a lot of rewriting of their history books - which at the moment are just works of fiction.
Steven,
England
Steven, Abraham, Ibrahim, or Abram, was neither Jewish nor Arab...We was a righteous person who refused to worship pagan gods...
He is the father of many nations...Northern Arabs, Israelits (but not Jewish for there is a difference between "Israelites and Jews")...
Why I say that? Becuase a Jew is one who either has Jewish mother or converted at the hands of an Orthodox rabbi..
So, what are you talking about?
Khalid
Khalid ,
Steven, was West Jerusalem granted to the Jews in 1948?
Jerusalem , east and west, was declared corpus separatum (separate entity)...don't you read history..or you just drink and eat mendacious hasbara.
Khalid
Khalid Amayreh,
If you Israeli's really want a united Jerusalem, unite Israel and the occupied territories (with the exception of the Golan) to a greater land, a haven of democracy and human rights, for Jews and Palestines alike, in or out of Diaspora.
John,
Netherlands
This is what i call commons sense, thank You Johanes for your humanity, honesty and morality.
Khalid
Khalid Amayreh,
B. Michaels writes: "If you had $100`s gaining interest in the bank since 1948, how much do you expect your money to be today? People marry, have children and grow in numbers, just like money. 20% of all Palestinian refugees originate from West Jerusalem Villages. If the refugees total number today is around 5 million"
And so it would be suicidal for Israel to allow these refugees to return. Or perhaps you would like Israel to commit suicide? Many anti-Semites do, you know.
Yonatan,
Kedar-Sava,
Israel
Accessol by the way so many people visit the Vatican, and how diverse is the Vatican city?
Steven,
VSL,
I will not engage you with the diatribes of hatred, historical lies and fabrication, and revisionism of truth. But, I will ask you one question:
How can Ibrahim El Khalil (Abraham) may Peace be Upon Him and his family, be a Jew, while there is a good 1000-1500 years dividing him from YaKoob (Yakov) PBH and his 12 children....is it not that Moses, PBH, brought out the Torah, and and the ten commandemnts?? is it not that only those the decendents of Juda, who carried the Torah and accepted the bible are the Jews!?! is it not true that many of Issac, chidren were not blessed, Like Isso were, who was left with out the blessing, becuase your Israel stole it from him??
you can call a goat a bird, but that means one thing: it means you are either do not belong to this world or you just plain..... (I leave it to the readers imaginations)
Abraham had two children, Ismael and Ishak (PBUT all)and Allohim promised the land of Canaan (god used to work for century 21) the land for him and he seeds. sorry, but last time I looked, it says that Ismael was one of his seeds....XXXXOOOOOXXOXOX okay cuz!!
Ahmad Abouali,
nablus, Palestine,
palestine
Yes, I am the one in blood and words. No I have not changed my position one iota.
Having said that, my solution of one state does not in one way or another take away the reality behind Jerusalem's history and truth, it was built by the Canaanites (our forefathers) and if the choice between staying under the rule of the Zionists and the Arabs; I will take the Arab side anytime, even if it was Saddam himself.
Yes, I am Ahmadabouali@hotmail.com.
Ahmad Abouali,
nablus, Palestine,
palestine
Wow, what an exciting country the UK is. It is so culturally diverse, i am very jealous.
PS,
Israel
Hebrews became Jews the day the torah was given. Nevertheless. Abraham spoke Hebrew. Abraham like Adam spoke the langauge of G-d which is Hebrew.
Steven,
VSL,
What I do know Khalid, is that Jerusalem was a Jewish city long before Islam was even created! Therefore the Arab claims to the city are entirely unfounded.
Accept the fact that "your people" created in 1948 will never get Jerusalem as your capital. Make do with Ramallah or Gaza City. That is if you can stop your terror attacks long enough to get a "Palestinian" state.
Steven,
England
you are right, this guy, Steve, is calling God a Jew as you predicted, earlier!!
Ahmad Abouali,
nablus, Palestine,
palestine
"it was built by the Canaanites (our forefathers)"
You can't have it both ways, Ahmed; either you're Canaanite or Arab. If you're Canaanite, the Canaanites were all wiped out (according to some biblical traditions) or became Israelite (according to much modern biblical scholarship). And the Israelites became Jews. So if you're a Canaanite, then you're extinct.
Arabs? There was Gashmu the Arab in the Book of Nehemiah, there were the Nabateans in the Negev in late Second Temple times and during the Roman Period; but the Arab Conquest occurred only in the 7th century CE (Muhammed's version of jihad). So if you're an Arab, you're a "newcomer", a conquereor; you forced the locals, Jews and Christians, to accept your religion and language. But that's history. You're welcome to stay here with us Jews, who have been present here (except for a period when they weren't allowed to live in Jerusalem under Roman rule) non-stop since biblical times.
Want to argue with me? Better not, I know my history - scientific, not slanted Muslim Arab or right-wing Jewish - better than you.
Yonatan,
Kefar-Sava,
Israel
To revise history first tell the lie but quickly wrap it in a thin outer layer of truth. Political lying, now called "spin" is merely persuading the ignorant that the lies you tell are the incontrovertible truth. The objective of the spin campaign is to fire up the participants here and, with the idea that, through a carefully constructed revision and/or cooked up facts of history, that it is believable.
But as long as we are on a biblical theme, Jerusalem is mentioned 667 times in the Jewish Bible nowhere is it written in the Koran. The mention of the "distant" mosque by Mohamed when in his vision one nite he saw himself FLYING OVER the distant mosque which could have been anywhere at the time, on a white pony, doesn't make me believe that Jerusalem again should be divided or shared with Palestinians Period!
yardena,
haifa,
Khalid, in violation of the armistice agreement between Israel and Jordan after the end of hostilities in 1949, Jordan blocked access to holy sites in the Old City to Israelis until Israel LIBERATED the eastern portion of the city in 1967 and ensured freedom of worship for all.
It matters not that the city was declared a corpus seperatum - the Arab League rejected the UN Partition plan of November 1947 while the Jews accepted it, then upon Israel's creation the Arab League launched an uneccessary war...so for an Arab to try and score points by making the case that Israeli sovereignty over any part of Jerusalem is illegal is to engage in an act of hyprocrisy caused by willful historical amnesia.
More should be done to integrate the city's Arabs into the social and economic framework of Jerusalem, and nothing should be done to excluse them from reaping the benefits of being contributing Jerusalemites. Thank God for the separation wall - though I prefer to call it the security barrier. If Suleiman the Great could build walls around Jerusalem - I wonder, was he breaking international law at the time? - so too can Israel. Naturally, with population growth the "blending of borders" of the surrounding cities will create some problems that will have to be dealt with - but if the Palestinians are governed by the rule of law and have a healthy respect for it instead of the disrespect that comes with choosing terrorism as a diplomatic tool...such problems should be easily resolved peacefully.
It is the Islamist terrorists, the Palestinian nationalists, and their supporters who more than Israelis and Jews use "Jerusalem" as a political tool to further their own ends. They've managed to successfully usurp the traditional, millenia-old Jewish attachment to Jerusalem and create an image that they desire the city more than us....even though we were stateless for over 2,000 years and the Arabs of the Palestine Mandate have been stateless for only 57 years. It is the Palestinians who now believe in the historic illusions associated with the name of Jerusalem, and many Jews and many Israelis who are cynical about or no longer believe in it. If anyone is using "Jerusalem" in a way it shouldn't be used, it is the Palestinians. If anyone needs to drop the idea of a greater Jerusalem, it is the Arabs with their "phased plans" to destroy Israel after creating a state "with east Jerusalem as it's capital".
And so what if even the smallest of problems, like faulty traffic lights, in Jerusalem are sometimes given cosmic importance...it IS Jerusalem, after all. I say woe to those who try and make Jerusalem like every other city in the world - because it can never be those cities. It can only be - it will always be - Jerusalem. I'm not just talking about the Old City, because Jews have always loved all of Jerusalem, even as they have loved certain areas within it. To the Jewish people, Jerusalem will always be Jerusalem.
Jeremy Slavin,
Jerusalem,
Israel
If only you would have been in charge evrything would fine. The streets would be always clean, the city perfectly planned and peace would guide the planets and love would fill the sky. I wish these gloom and doom (or is a fantasy wish?) far leftists would go dump on some one elses parade for a while. They accent only the negative in order to aggravate it in order to deconstruct Israel in order to leave it open to destruction that is their true motivation, not honest concerns with issues of urban planning. Benvensiti is another one who holds Israel to impossible standards and who chosses his personal and collective destruction in order to resolve the issues. NO THANKS
Danite,
So by your logic, steven, the Americans have no claim to the United States because much of the land was essentially stolen from the native americans. right? not really.
ted,
israel
Khalid, in violation of the armistice agreement between Israel and Jordan after the end of hostilities in 1949, Jordan blocked access to holy sites in the Old City to Israelis until Israel LIBERATED the eastern portion of the city in 1967 and ensured freedom of worship for all.
It matters not that the city was declared a corpus seperatum - the Arab League rejected the UN Partition plan of November 1947 while the Jews accepted it, then upon Israel's creation the Arab League launched an uneccessary war...so for an Arab to try and score points by making the case that Israeli sovereignty over any part of Jerusalem is illegal is to engage in an act of hyprocrisy caused by willful historical amnesia.
More should be done to integrate the city's Arabs into the social and economic framework of Jerusalem, and nothing should be done to excluse them from reaping the benefits of being contributing Jerusalemites. Thank God for the separation wall - though I prefer to call it the security barrier. If Suleiman the Great could build walls around Jerusalem - I wonder, was he breaking international law at the time? - so too can Israel. Naturally, with population growth the "blending of borders" of the surrounding cities will create some problems that will have to be dealt with - but if the Palestinians are governed by the rule of law and have a healthy respect for it instead of the disrespect that comes with choosing terrorism as a diplomatic tool...such problems should be easily resolved peacefully.
It is the Islamist terrorists, the Palestinian nationalists, and their supporters who more than Israelis and Jews use "Jerusalem" as a political tool to further their own ends. They've managed to successfully usurp the traditional, millenia-old Jewish attachment to Jerusalem and create an image that they desire the city more than us....even though we were stateless for over 2,000 years and the Arabs of the Palestine Mandate have been stateless for only 57 years. It is the Palestinians who now believe in the historic illusions associated with the name of Jerusalem, and many Jews and many Israelis who are cynical about or no longer believe in it. If anyone is using "Jerusalem" in a way it shouldn't be used, it is the Palestinians. If anyone needs to drop the idea of a greater Jerusalem, it is the Arabs with their "phased plans" to destroy Israel after creating a state "with east Jerusalem as it's capital".
And so what if even the smallest of problems, like faulty traffic lights, in Jerusalem are sometimes given cosmic importance...it IS Jerusalem, after all. I say woe to those who try and make Jerusalem like every other city in the world - because it can never be those cities. It can only be - it will always be - Jerusalem. I'm not just talking about the Old City, because Jews have always loved all of Jerusalem, even as they have loved certain areas within it. To the Jewish people, Jerusalem will always be Jerusalem.
Jeremy Slavin,
Jerusalem,
Israel
The Palestinians are not realted to the Cannanites at all their is no connection I have explained ad nauseum to Khalid he can fill you in. Or are you another cardboard cutout Khalid likes to paste on this site? If not then your beliefs are one more reason for immediate unilateral Israeli withdrawl to the camp david lines, the Arab world is no where, Europe is wher e the action is where Israel should be.
Danite,
Absolutely Ted, you've got that right, the Americans are the last to repach about persecution, they did it themselves to the American Indians. I have no quarrel there.
Steven,
England
I am one of those American Zionists who loves to travel to Yerushalayim, the cradle of my people. I do not have to travel half-way around the world to find cultural diversity.
Johnny Weintraub,
Sugar Land,,
Texas USA
Well, well well, what do we have here, a sociologist who is graduated from the.....Torah?!! I guess?
Sorry, dude, go find yourself some one like you to indulge yourselves into what I term:" fanatsy in the biblical land and the beasts of six-fingered Canaanites"!!!
So, you are telling me that you wiped out all the Canaanites! hmmm, so Palestine was empty for the past 3000 years right? after the Jewish so-called diaspora?
If you want to talk scinece, then i am for it, but if you want to talk stories, I direct you to Desny land, they will "discuss with you the boggy man of Canaan"
LOL
Ahmad Abouali,
nablus, Palestine,
palestine
Sir, you wrote in your post of justifcation of war and colonization of my land the following (I will not go any further on the other inaccurenties)
"until Israel LIBERATED the eastern portion of the city in 1967 and ensured freedom of worship for all"
If you are libertors to the city and agreed to the UN stands vs. the city, why did you gave the UN the mandate over Jerusalem?
If you allowed others to "freedom of worship" why for the past 14 years no Palestinians out side of the "city" is not allowed to worship at Al Aqsa, and for the past 5 years, no Israel "Arab" under the age of 40 was allowed to worship either?
I am asking a question to a statement that you made, blanketly, about freedom of warship?!
Finally Jordan was at war with , i.e no borders, however, Jews who were not Israelis were permitted to visit and pray.let alone thee was no agreement btw Israel and Jordan.
Ahmad Abouali,
nablus, Palestine,
palestine
It is very obvious that you know nothing about history, except the history of the Ribbies. It shows how ignorant about us, even you can not spell my name right, how on earth I would accept your ditribe and simplisity of the Bibile about "wiping out the Canaanites"
There is no shred of evident that refers to the Jews' as having the so-called temple, not even 1 cm of evident of that "huge" temple, nor a shred of evident (althouh your arcehological dept, have been working day and night, for 40 years, and can not find one evident of Jewish artifacts connects them to Jerusalem) giving you any connection to this great Arabic-Cannanite city.
have some training on Arabic names, then come to teach us about our history!!
Ahmad Abouali,
nablus, Palestine,
palestine
The questions is:
Does one group shall have rights, while the other won't.
If you respond by yes then that is a recipe for ever lasting war.
Since West Jerusalem (incliding Baqa'a, Katamons and other Palestinian quarters) are in West Jerusalem, which Palestinians will agree to being within the agreed Israel, why can't Israelis agree and support Palestinian claims to have their capital in East Arab Jerusalem?
As far as "who became extinct" - The Yehudas/Israelites or the Cannanites/Philistines/Palerstinians -- THEY BOTH EXIST and should be recognized by all.
Evidendence is availble (even) from studies by Prof. Ariela Oppenheim, genetic researcher, and by archelogists e.g. Magen.
But of course if your politics causes you to doubt that ... you need a shrink!
Abraham came from MESOPOTAMIA (Aram Naharayim), Iraq of today. He certainly was no "Jew". But it is OK with me if you want to "post-mortem circumcise him after 8 days"... I have no objection to civilized people, and monothesitic religions sharing prophets etc.
(I hear that Nawfal abu Warakeh, a teacher of prophet of Mohammad, was Jewish, and that Khadijeh, Mohammad's wife was that too...
The Jews took the Sabbath, the Christians Sunday, and the Moslems settled for Friday. Bless them all! A few more days are still to be had...
Moses Proposes,
Now that I have speleed your name right do you believe every word I say? Look at a photo of the Arch Of Titus in Rome and read the inscription that details the items the Romans took out of the Temple and describes the battle in detail. So their is proof the the Jewish Temple once stood. There is reference to the treasure of the Temple taken by the Babylonians in their records as well.You are the one who does not know what he is talking about, so need to respond to me at all.I have dealt with Khalds type ignorance all I intend to and have no desire to go over the same tired ground.
Danite,
I am not basing myself on the Bibles claims read the Book of Judges it says that the Cannaintes where not wiped out by the Israelites in contradiction to the Book of Joshua. I base my self on scholarship and archaeology not the bible which is amore complicated document than you couldpossibly undesrtand as you confuse it with your own simplistic points of referance.
Danite,
You Muslims know exactly where the Jewish temple was, you built the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque on top of the ruins so as to try and hide it and claim the site as yours.
Steven,
England
"the reality behind Jerusalem`s history and truth, it was built by the Canaanites (our forefathers)"
It is quite scary to see how a narrow tribal notion of identity is so prevailing among many people from both sides of this board and how so many seem more concerned about the supposed past of their supposed ancestors from more than thousand years ago than about their and their children future. I don't care ( and don't need any proof to show to anybody) if my ancestors were Canaanites or Mongols and I don't care if Ahmad Abouali's ancestors were in the region called Canaan thousand years ago or emigrated one hundred years ago from Turkey. If Jerusalem was built by Jews , it's OK for me; if by Arabs fine too. By Canaanites, Apaches Indians or Korean entrepreneurs is OK also. Who cares ? I and Ahmad Abouali have to live there whoever built it in the past. Was the person called Abraham /Ibrahim El Khalil a Jew , a Hebrew, a Khazar , was he speaking Yiddish or Esperanto , was a real person or a myth is not of my concern. Is God a Jew or a Muslim ? Well he/she/it may be an atheist , it's OK with me.
"even if it was Saddam himself."
You're welcome , and enjoy :-}
Maze?,
Tel Aviv ,
SharonLand
I've always enjoyed reading Meron Benveniste ever since I read his book on the Crusades. I enjoyed hearing him speak while I lived in Jerusalem.
In this essay, he pleads for a seperation between the holy city's problems and its temporal ones. Unfortunately, this impulse to isolate the sacred from the profane is becoming increasingly difficult to manage. One could argue that under Mayor Teddy Kollak, channels existed for expressing the opinions of the various communities that made up Jerusalem. Now, there is only one factor-the imperative to creat political facts on the ground which will make an move toward co-operative effort impossible. We have a situation in Jerusalem today where it is likely that rabid nationalists will gather on Jerusalem Day and dance a hora over the 90 destroyed homes in Silwan. There is little if any of the "holy: left in Jerusalem. It has become all temporal, a feral place, where morality has been replaced by the imperative of ethnic supremacy.
Yaakov Sullivan,
New York,
ny
Waah! Abraham was a Muslim, Waah! Moses was a Muslm. Waah! Joseph was a Muslim. Waah! Aaron was a Muslim. Waah! all the Prophets were really Muslims. Waah! the Temple in Jerusalem wasn't really a Temple it was a Mosque. Waah! The Mosque was created when the world was born, not after the formation of Islam. Waah! today's Jews aren't really the descendents of the Hebrew tribes, they're fake Europeans who converted. Waah! the real rabbi's aren't in in Israel. Waah! Only Muslims can tell you who the real rabbi's are. Waah! Waah! Waah! Waah!
Khalid's incessent whining is just another example of the Muslim attempt to deny Jews and Judiasm. It's amazing how Muslims, who get so defensive when even the slightest inclination of others to make commentary on their religion or religious figures, feel free to deny an entire people their faith.
Of course the counter argument is that if Abraham, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron were really Muslims, and the laws of the Torah are universal, then why are all the Arabs whining about the Jews moving to Israel. After all, it would make us Muslims too...
Jacob Blues,
New York City,
NY
Only someone who spends little to no time in this city could possibly write such a pointless article. Yes, "Yom Yerushalayim" is an affront, irrelevance, waste of resources. Yes, Lupolianski is a little short on personality. Yes, there are all kinds of racist schemes afoot by corrupt and twisted pen pushers. But there are also plenty of joint initiatives to beat the corruption, make the city a pleasure to live in and above all provide opportunities and dignity for residents on BOTH sides of the Seam Line. Anyway- next time Haaretz should ask me to write their Op-Ed, I'd do a much better job.
And cousin Ahmad- I think it is a bit tragic how sadly lacking the knowledge of our relationship is among the "family"- as can be seen in this forum. I had a Muslim friend at school in England who didn't believe me that we shared prophets- I showed her in a Bible, and so she asked her teacher at Mosque, who told her not to listen to the lies of the zionist enemy (I was ten).
ESP,
Jerusalem... unlike Mr. Benevisti,
Look on the bright side, it means you wont be there!
Danite,
Jacob, don't wah...you simply don't know. You are absorbed in your particularist and segregatgionalist thinking...
According to Islam, all Prophets and messengers from God are Muslims (obedient to God and surrendering to his will). Hence, all Prophets from Adam to Muhammed are Muslim. The Israelite traditions are thus an integral part of Islam.
If you are still paralyzed by your wahs....then go to an academic at the Hebrew University and ask him or her..., if you don't continue to wah and wah and wha until you are no longer able to distinguish betweeen Haman and Mordechaei!
Khalid
Khalid ,
Khalid, Your knowhow, your engagement, your honesty and your faith in the future makes you one of the sharpest tools, to carve out the Palestine we all envison. It will also make you the target of the gullible, clueless, mentally challenged right wingers that can't even grasp the situation. In other words Khalid...you matters and many are those you speak for.
May your camels(if you have any) spit nothing but diamonds.
Johanes Franzen Stockholm
Johanes Franzen,
Stockholm,
Sweden
SOMEHOW .. this has turned into Who was Abraham ... We know who he was and who God Promised Israel to (Khalid get out your bible - God commaded Abraham to remove Ishmael from his home - a precursor of things to come) but that isnt the topic here. The topic at hand is Jerusalems future - and its future is the continued capitol of Israel. Every day Jews pray towards it, cherish it, and every day arabs turn thier backs on it and pray to Mecca. Under Arab rule, there was no equal access - now there is (facts are facts). Once the arab problem has been solved (Israel has been at war with 27 arabs nations for 50+ years) then we can properly spend the time correcting the issues with Jerusalem....
pace306,
nyc,
ny
Ahmad, you say that jews wont let arabs worship, but clearly it is the arabs that have absolutely no respect for any religious practices besides their own!!!
want proof? here ya go: 1)they have thrown rocks over the western wall where Jews pray 2)they refuse to allow and Jews to pray on the temple mount. If you want equality in religion, then u let me go up there and pray too!!! otehrwise itsa a double standard 3)the fact that some arab worker put graffitti of "Alla" on a wall of the temple mount without anyone saying anything bad about it. If fact, arab ehads of jerusalem were heard saying "i dont see what the big deal is" 4)Arabs have been excavating the ttemple mount for YEARS and dumping it in a garbage dump ineast jerusalem.
IS TAHT RELIGIOUS FREEDOM AND RESPECT TO YOU!??
Shimon,
I dont know about you, but i dont concider it to be diverse wen i am sorrounded by terrorists who do not respect anything i say or do. That isnt diversity, that is a pain.
Shimon,
What Israel has been doing in Jerusalem is a crime against humanity. Truely. A city which could have been a model for inter-faith tolerance has fallen under a brutal Judiazation process.
I use to enjoy the day trips to the Old City from Ramallah. Now it can take over an hour to make the 20km drive. Beit Hanina is being strangled right now too! Israel has just announced plans to destroy Arab homes in the Silwan neighborhood to build some Jewish Archeology Park. Now the bizarre in the Old City sits pratically empty with sad looks from the vendors who for generations earned a living in this Holy City.
Tareq #9 really hit it on the head: Jerusalem is a divided city and will remain so until Israel wakes up to her evil ways. As with Khalid #20, I too applaud the beautiful words of Johanes Franzen #11.
For all you proud Israelis out there...can you please explain why you have to destroy the multi-ethnic spirit Jerusalem, a city holy to three religions and the cultural, spiritual center of Palestinian society?
A shared Jerusalem, capital of both Israel and Palestine will be BETTER FOR JEWS AS WELL!!! Maybe Israeli's in Tel Aviv can also actually enjoy a visit to the city...If were an Israeli walking through the old city today, I would feel nothing but shame.
Ibrahim,
USA
to Kahlid and who ever else it is: would you mind keeping youre opinions about our religeon to your self. you are on an israeli forum with alot of jews here. allthough you are more than welcome to contribut do you think you could stick to the point an dkeep your insulting opininoana about our religeon and faith out of it. it is highly insulting and becomeing intolerable, intelligent people who enjoy this discussion borared simple wont contribut because who wants to here a guy not adheing to the laws of repect and politicle corectness. please, just keep what ever opions who have to the ears of people who care what you think. if it you were presenting facts i might be inclined to discuss youre issues with you, but as of yet you just insulted 17 million people not toforget the 30 million christians and stated a 4000 year old relifgeon to be false. i mean please can you be so aggrogent as to justify this any further?
john,
America,
You say Jews should share jerusalem???? why should the jews respect the arab religious freedoms.Do the arabs repect the jewish religion?????? please read post 53 and respond to it...
Shimon,
Ahmed Abouali... There is no point trying to be an impostor and make ludicrous claims which can never hold even in a kangaraoo court.
The name of Jerusalem was JEBUS before it was conquered by King David and made into the Israelite capital. The original ancient Hebrew name of the city YERU-SHALEM means "founded by 'the perfect one'". Later, the name was changed into YERUSHALAYIM in a plural form to show it was built on two hills. The Canaanites are long gone from history, and the only thing that remains of them is the Language of Canaan, which is the language now know as Hebrew, as both the Bible and archeology tell us.
As for Jerusalem, it was raised to the ground and burned completely by the Roman Emperor Hadrian, and renamed 'Aelia Capitolina' and dedicated to Jupiter. So when the city was conquered by Caliph Omar, the original Arab name of the city was 'Ilya'.
So Abouali, falsification of history will take you far away from your goal of establishing your Palestinian state, and take you on a magic carpet ride to never-never land.
Jake,
Washington,
D.C.
A shared Jerusalem? What purpose would that serve? Under Moslem occupation, neither Jews nor Christians were permitted anywhere near their respective holy sites. Under the so-called Christian occupation of the Crusades, the same was true under pain of death. Under Israeli (majority Jewish) rule, all three major religions have free access to their holy sites. All moves to make Jerusalem a "shared city" simply ignore this reality and have as their aim to deny Jews sovereignty over their rightful capital city, thereby removing the very heart from the Jewish state.
Colin Rowe,
London,
what a wearisome piece!a black splodge of spite scorn scoffing and nothingness. mr benvenisti what on earth are you talking about?say directly what you mean. and your prose mr benvenisti!appalling and unreadable. i am for leaving the areas where the jews are not the majority?what exactly are you for?
richard,
hughley,
england
I find it amusing how lightly people nowadays hand out judgements on "crimes agains humanity" or "war crimes" or "human rights violations..." Those accusations are brought out always when someone tries to add some weight to his opinions, but in my opinion, it has actually decreased the meaning of those crimes and when there are truly happening that kind of crimes, people may not take it very seriously, because there has been too many "whistle blowers" handing out accusations here and there. Same thing has happened to terrorism at some degree...
Jerusalem is city that is "too holy." However, I wouldn't consider it to be wrong that it has particular meaning to jews. Muslims have their holy cities of Mecca and Medina. Maybe we should try to convince muslims that they should be made to represent "inter-faith tolerance." Do you think muslims would agree to that? I don't think so.
Shared Jerusalem will not do any good to anyone. It will only bring more tensions and eventually, it will burst into violence. And it is no only some israelis that share the vision of unpartitioned Jerusalem. It was Arafat himself that was many times repeating, that shared Jerusalem would be only a step forward and finally Jerusalem would be palestinian territory, muslim territory. I haven't actually seen any talks from palestinian authority, that would explain or even find a decent excuse for those speeches. Or that they have changed their way of thinking regarding Jerusalem. So, I don't think I'll trust palestinians even in this matter.
Michael,
Ibrahim you arabs love to use the words crime against Humanity. When all Jews that were living in East Jerusalem expelled and were expelled or killed by the Jordanians in 1948, was that a crime against Humanity? The Arabs need a right of return to Jaffa to make up for a so-called crime against Humanity yet, Jews have no right to return to Jerusalem to make up for a real crime against Humanity. Sadly Muslims have to wait a long time on lines to get one place to another. You have to thank the blood thirsty Muslims that made up the concept of going on buses and blowing up people. If you remember before the cafés were being bombed, Muslims were able to go where they wanted in Jerusalem with ease. You even stated that more or less yourself. Btw Ibrahim Blowing up old Jewish ladies and Jewish school children are a crime against Humanity. A crime that is not just having to stand in line longer than one should. When I go to airpot I have to stand in line, is that a crime against Humanity? The poor people Jews, Arabs and others, that were killed by Muslim terrorists, that is a true crime against humanity yet for that you stay silent. Ibrahim people like you are the reason there will never be peace. Look at yourself in the mirror and see why Palestinian old ladies must wait in line. Do not look at me.
Steven,
VSL,
``Jews, Christians and Muslims will have to share Jerusalem``
Its our JEWISH eternal capital....others may visit we control and own it....get over it....
Share stockholm with the world if your so inclined...
KJJ,
TORONTO,
CANADA
`` can`t think there are going to be many tourists in years to come wanting to visit a boring monolithic Jewish-only,``
HA HA HA Just watch...and YOU..if its boring....don`t go...
KJJ,
TORONTO,
CANADA
``May your camels(if you have any) spit nothing but diamonds.``
JF life dealt you such bad cards ..you could of been Palestinian with a real cause ...but instead just a regular swede...how cruel....oh well your making up for it now trying to be more Palestinian than the Palestinians...adopting THEIR struggle with such enthusiasm...Good for you ;)
KJJ,
TORONTO,
CANADA
``boring monolithic Jewish-only, shomer shabbat, glat kosher, yeshiva filled city`` Oh its such a burden being a boring Jew...we all hate being Jews so much and were all bored and wish we were some ther ``exciting`` race of people...
KJJ,
TORONTO,
CANADA
This talk about the origins of ones religion, be it Judaism or Christianity or Islam gets very murky and really stirs people up. I went back and read Khalid's postings. I did not find anything insulting to anyone else's religion. For Jews, Abraham, is called the first Jew, since he become the progenitor of Yaakov from whom the Jews descended. He came from a Mesopotamian household and according to Jewish tradition his father was an idol maker. He broke with that tradition and left Ur of the Chaldees and moved westward.
Muslims consider Abraham to be the first Muslim in that he submitted his will to the one God-Allah and that he brought that knowledge of the One God to others. Since he sumitted to God's will and became the "friend" of God is is rightly called the first Muslim.
As to which language Abraham spoke, that is a question for linguists of Semitic languages. It is however unlikely that he spoke modern Hebrew. Had Cananite, Ugaritic, Arabic, Aramaic, Chaldean, Hebrew abecome differentiated by his time?
If only the peoples of Abraham could take his tradition of hospitality to strangers (tradition has it that his tent was open on all sides and that he sat at the opening to welcome strangers) and apply it to one another rather than using it as a sword to batter the other.
Yaakov Sullivan,
New York,
NY
Tareq, the Arab residents of the parts of Jerusalem captured by Israel from Jordan in 1967 were offered full Israeli citizenship. They rejected it. Anyone who would have accepted Israeli citizenship would have been killed by the PLO.
Fred,
Washington,
DC
Real sincere offer, wasnt it Fred? Israel is doing everyhting every minute of the day to see that it judaises every inch of East Jerusale, it has expanded its metropolitan borders as opposed to its municipal borders to include the maximum number of Jews in East Jerusalem and to prevent palestinian ceighborhoods from growing. It has liited the right of Palestinian citizens of Israel to marry palestinians and bring them back to the country. With this history, I don't think it was only a question of palestinians assassinating those who did accept Israeli citizenship. The idea of tens of thousands of Palestinian residents of Jerusalem being granted israeli citizenship is a zionists nighmare. Might have more to do with zionist propaganda that if they annexed rather than occupied Jerusalem, then they are required by international law to grant citizenship to those non-Jewish residents. Since you make the statement Fred, how many palestinians did opt for citizenship? How many of those were gunned down by Palestinians? Figures on that Fred?
Yaakov Sullivan,
New York,
NY
There are "recipes" for success--and similarly--there are recipes for "peace" (or failure).
In order for there to be a "lasting peace"--Jerusalem MUST BE DIVIDED! .......There is NO way around this.
Israel--MUST STOP seeking--STOP imposing on the world (and Palestinians)--its own unrealistic and unattainable goals. .......Based on--its desire to return to glory"--and on its religion--"ultimate" revenge for the Holocaust (against the wrong people by the way), etc.
You wanted a "Greater Israel"--FINALLY you realize--AFTER many years of bloodshed--AFTER many years of occupation and abuse/violations--and AFTER many years of making yourselves lose the respect and sympathy of most in the world for being Pariahs............you finally get that a "Greater Israel"--IS NOT POSSIBLE!
Now what's left for you to deal with--is the lingering concept of a "Greater Jerusalem"--and holding onto settlements in Judea and Samaria. .......How many MORE YEARS--do YOU want to cause YOURSELVES--bloodshed and the lack of peace? .......How many more years will you ABUSE another people.................in an attempt to reach this goal? .......You--WILL NOT Accomplish--this. Based on the constraints put forth by the world--it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY--that you will attain these goals.
You all can move towards acceptance--now--WHICH IS BEST FOR YOU/All.............or do it after many more years of bloodshed (and other negative action by the world is taken against you).
The Facts Are:
1.] The Palestinians AREN'T going anywhere!
2.] The World--will not let you make them go anywhere--AND HAS NOT! .......We, THE WORLD, have proven this for decades. .......This WILL NOT change!
3.] Dividing Jerusalem--is more likely to lead to a "lasting peace"--than not dividing it. .......In fact--it is THE ONLY SOLUTION (besides resolving the settlements issue and other)!
Further:
I repeat--as I have stated before. That your status in the world will change--we will move more forcefully against Israel. .......It is obvious that Israel is a Pariah now--and its action can not continue to be allowed--in general--and based on the current climate in the world.
What--WILL CHANGE IS--the world (and perhaps the U.S.) will get tired of people who are obviously NOT victims (but say they are/say they are only engaging in "self-defense")...........continuing to cause bloodshed; continuing to create the lack of peace/stability for much of the world and region............continuing their occupation and oppression against another people (the Palestinians). .......NOT BECAUSE IT'S JUSTIFIED-but because THEY (Israel/Israelis) refuse to accept REALITY. .......Refuse to accept this set of "facts on the ground": The Palestinians EXIST--and they AREN'T--GOING ANYWHERE!
I often see Jews tell Palestinians/say to others that--"they should just get over it/just move on." .......It's time for JEWS to say this--TO THEMSELVES. .....You've been saying "next year Jerusalem," etc--for thousands of years--and all that goes along with that.
......Now it's time for you to "get over it." Accept that Jerusalem--WILL BE DIVIDED. Accept that it being divided--IS THE ONLY WAY--to have a "lasting peace."
.......And, if YOU can't accept it/refuse to accept this YOURSELVES............then accept that THE WORLD will move--to make sure that you do.
How much more suffering do YOU want to bring to--and upon--YOURSELVES?
.......I would think that ALL have suffered enough.
Proud U.S. Defender Of Palestinians,
Washington,
DC
"the reality behind Jerusalem`s history and truth, it was built by the Canaanites (our forefathers)"
Why did your prophet Mohammad view Jerusalem as a great holy place? There were no Mosques in Jerusalem, indeed no Moslems, at the time of Mohammad. So what compeled Mohammad to initially tell his followers to face toward Jerusalem (not Mecca!) during prayer?
Certainly, it was not because idol worshiping Canaanites had lived there! Could it be that Mohammad himself believed in the existence of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem?
Orquest,
Riverside,
CA
john: Are you a representative of H'aaretz to bar me from voicing my opinions.?
I will continue to voice my opinions and views, no matter how many Jewish settlers and right-wing fanatics get angry.
I know you people out there are angry and frustrated...for you never had that bad...there is now somebody to filter you lies..and you don't like it.
Khalid
Khalid ,
Words like "eternal" have no political meaning. They lack context. The world does not view Stockholm as they do Jerusalem. Of course you will have to share it. To think otherwise is to deny reality. Perhaps we should get all parties concerned to give it to the Baha'ais. What about that, KJJ, would you agree to that?
Yaakov Sullivan,
New York,
NY
``JERUSALEM WILL BE DIVIDED--It`s Time To Accept This``
NEVER...we aint living in Disnyworld.
KJJ,
TORONTO,
CANADA
"I used to enjoy day trips to Jerusalem from Ramahla." How nice how whimsical, so did I, but since your buddies decided to seek a brothel of 72 heavenly virgins to the heroic tune of checks signed by Saddam himself, that quaint drive has become circumspect. After the war of 1948, which brought the only democracy to the neighbourhood, Jerusalem, east jerusalem fell to the Jordanians. JORDANIANS, NOT THE PALESTINIANS, J.O.R.D.A.N.I.A.N.S. They were not a Christian groove rock band but another Arab state which had no intentions or dream of making East Jerusalem the capital of anything. Palestine was not part of their lexicon. Just as Jerusalem is never mentioned in the Koran, the only interest that the Arab world has in Jerusalem is its supreme importance to the Jews, their history and mythos, without that it is but another town.
fox,
karkur,
israel
Kahlid, I think everyone on this forum is angry and upset. Otherwise they wouldn't be on these forums. It seems to me these forums are an outlet for frustration. Therefore, it is not suprising that the majority of coments on the forum are extremely leftists and rightest. Instead of repeating the same stats and negative opinions day in and out, why don't we start talking about positive and feasable solutions?
Oh its such a burden being a boring Jew...we all hate being Jews so much and were all bored and wish we were some ther ``exciting`` race of people...
Don't be ashamed that you're a Jew. Just try to be a better human being and stop the constant whining about victimhood. Truth is you haven't been victims in sixty years. Did you learn nothing from the suffering of your people other than to inflict suffering on other people who had nothing to do with what happened to you?
terry,
Yaakov, I enjoy your postings in these forums and just wanted to applaud you.
Shimon, I try not to respond to the likes of you...you are too hateful towards gentiles and you cling too much to bitter history... If you read my postings carefully, you will not find the same biggotted and hateful tone as yours. I don't believe rocks should be thrown at Jewish worshippers and I know it doesn't happen often at all. Did you know it was not that long ago that Blacks in America had to sit in the back of the bus and drink from a different fountain... I try to learn from history and take a more humanist approach to the problems of today. Are blacks suppose to hate whites eternally for this and all the other evils that befell them?
Sorry for some of the harsh rhetoric, but sometimes I can't help myself.
Steven and Michael- I stand by my claim of a crime against humanity and I don't think the term has been nearly as watered down as "terrorism". You folks justify everything Israel does by either history or TERROR....Is not some of Israel's policies also a function of GREED and EXPANSIONIST AMBITIONS?
I also strongly believe suicide bombings ANYWHERE, ANYPLACE is a crime against humanity as well. They serve no purpose but the ease the pain of Palestinian helplessness in the face of overwhelming and agressive Israeli military might. They should end immediately. I deplore seeing innocent Israelis killed on busses or cafes...I am serious.
But as with all other bouts of terror in the world-there is political context that can not be ignored.
Israel's ethnic cleansing and Judiazation Program in Jerusalem should END immediately. I believe Israeli Jews will be much more proud of their city and may even visit it more often if they applied a little fairness and justice to their overwhelming might.
Peace-Salaaaam-Shalom to all, Ibrahim
Ibrahim,
USA
Yaakov. Abraham originally spoke Aramaic and came from northern Mesopotamia (Aram Naharaim, today northern Syria and southern Turkey). The Hebrews switched to 'Hebrew' when they arrived in Canaan.
Jake,
Washington,
D.C.
khalid, I am not writing about anything in particular you said, just all of it. LIES, LIES and lies plus a heavy load of blah blah blah. You have not confounded me sir, all that you say is expected, you are obvious working as a open sewer for all the anti-semitic garbage I have heard and read. You are a proud student of Haj Amin el Husseini, the Palestinian leader who signed agreements with Hitler while at the same time his family sold off huge tracks of land to the British and Zionists. His thing was turning the conflict into one of religions, this had always worked in the past, and with a little tutelage from his friend Goebbels he did his best to breed hatred and contempt between the two peoples. Now what is most interesting is that whilst the Palestinians became more Moslem, the Jewish community of Israel was largely secular and didn't feel it necessary or politically correct to mess with religion. So here we sit today, the mayor of Um al Fahm leads the Al Aksa movement in Israel, while Ron Huldai, the mayor of Tel Aviv builds bicycle paths and rebuilds the city's including Yaffo's sewage system. I see a contrast here. Whereas the Jews have not lead a holy war for Jerusalem, it just doesn't go down well here, the Arabs have turned this political mess into an intifada for the Islamization of Jerusalem. This is the truth you know it. Now take a breath and continue with your racist raves.
fox,
karkur,
israel
Poor little Angels/going through hell
They came down the hills/hungry and cold looking for some mercy/see they hadn't been told that the world ran out of mercy/many years ago
They show me their children/with stories to tell Poor little angels going through hell I wish I had the power/to make some bastards pay
A boy mourns his sister/learning about pain as the world gently yawns/mothers cry in vain/cause tears is all you'll ever get from crying
and the men they are dreaming/cleaning their guns/praying to God/teaching their sons/To always ask for freedom and never nothing less:"Always ask for freedom and never nothing less"
So early in the morning/before the sun rise/you can see them heading for the border/with no mercy in their eyes/'cause this men whom fight for freedom are learning every day/That tears is all you'll ever get from crying.
Johanes Franzen,
Stockholm,
Sweden
This is an excerpt from the official web site of the Jerusalem municipality. It is much more comforting for the whole world than Yasser Arafat's vow that "The Palestinian flag will fly over the churches and mosques of Jerusalem" and "one million martyrs will march on Jerusalem."
http://www.jerusalem.muni.il "Jerusalem is like no other city on earth. It is holy to the world's three major monotheistic religions, and was fought over for three millennia by a variety of peoples and nations. Jerusalem is the capital of the State of Israel and of the Jewish people, but, in a special sense, Jerusalem belongs to the whole world."
Jake,
Washington,
D.C.
the true face of israel's silent majority is tel aviv and haifa, not jerusalem. jerusalem has become the Kabul of israel, where the most medieval and dangerous tendencies of the jews are being manifested. the best thing that can happen is for jerusalem to be separated from israel somehow. with that, israel would be separated from its worst instincts and maybe become the modern, liberal and decent state it was supposed to become.
the cohen brother,
Carmel Valley,
California
Whereas you yourself have proven to be somewhat of a moderate palestianain, sadly, there are way too many out there who do not see things your way, but see violence as the best option no matter what happens in peace, and who lack ANY care for any other religion.
i know this based on my assesments earlier which u only answered one out of 4 or 5 of.
If arab are so tolerable, why do they destroy anything on the temple mount that belonged to jews? why do they put grafitti on our temple mount wall? why do they excavate and throw jewish relics from the temple mount in the dumb? and why cant jws go up their and pray too???
Shimon,
the cohen brother you are a racist. Either you are an Arab pretending to be a Jew, thus you used the name Cohen, or you are a self hating Jew that seems to hate all Jews that do not eat pork. Which one is it? Whichever one it is, I really feel sorry for you. You seem to hate religious Jews. You have real issues, issues of hate and racism. You are not Liberal, you are only liberal with your hate sadly.
Steven,
VSL,
Ibrahim, when the Muslims ethnically cleansed Jews for Jerusalem in 1948, you do not feel any shame, nor are you for the right of return. Since 1967 the Jews started to return to the homes and areas there were kicked out from in 1948. Deal with reality. Morever, If Israel's goal is too grab ''Arab'' land and that is why there are now road blocks, why did these road blocks come up after the suicide bombings? Ibrahim do not rewrite history. You know full well when the road blocks came up. and they did not come up in 1967. They came up with Arafat you, the peace prize winner who sent muslim youths to their deaths so they could kill Jews. Ibrahim please do not use the word Shalom. Shalom in hebrew means peace. Peace is built on reality and Justice. You are an historic revisionist, thus you do not know either. When you say Shalom, is an affront to all Humanity.
Steven,
VSL,
Conquerors fondle their powerful guns, thinking to have the last word. Time, however, smiles at their ironic impotence.
A lasting solution would involve mutual and regional recognition for both states, a shared capital in Jerusalem, Palestinian rights to their own water sources in the WB & G, Palestinian control over their own coast in Gaza as well as their own roads in the West Bank and an agreement to end the issue of Palestinian refugees returning to Israel with perhaps a token number of refugees entering Israel.
So why is such an agreement not possible right now? Because the current party with the power advantage, Israel, will not share Jerusalem, will not give up their control of Palestinian water sources, and will not give up their control of Palestinian roads, borders and coastlines. Israeli leaders have made it clear that their fleeting power advantages are more important than international law, human rights and regional recognition. Note that both Israel and the U.S. have completely ignored the Arab Peace Initiative which could have developed many of these terms and that was unanimously passed by the Arab League in March, 2002.
Only the fairness of these terms can provide a lasting peace. Otherwise sources of resentment will not be healed and this conflict will continue long after Israel's current advantages are gone.
John
hfinnish,
St. Louis,
USA
Johannes' child came to him asking to blow up a bus. Johannes said no, it means nothing to us. We live far far away in the land of the northern light. I'll just get on the internet and set everything right. He typed out words filled wtih hate Blood guts and pain he sought to relate. I hate poetry and the likes of the Jews, he had another beer what is a Swede to do. I want violence and blood, I breed terror and fear. Johannes realized he had finished his beer. Shedding fake tears, wishing he had a real struggle, for the nights are long, dark and dull, raise your sword my viking warrior, Let your fears rule your mind, for there is a zionist under your bed bringing darkness to the land. Blood he roared, honor in death, and we are supposed to accept our fate, dig your graves you hard necked children of Abraham, for the sun has set over the frozen north and it will offer you no refuge. His child wondered what was with this man Johannes ordered him to toss his emptied can, as verse is his blues, Palestine his muse, and what a wonderful world it would be without those Jews. Thank you Johannes, everytime I read your words I want that wall to be built high wide and long. What humanity had hoped was the past has come to manifest itself in the likes of you.
fox,
karkur,
israel
Steven, what is going on here? What are you going on about? Even according to your own worlds, at least the Jews got to go back to their homes in the Jewish Qt. You havenet allowed the same right to the palestinians you kicked out. And for saying this Ibrahim's use of the term "shalom" is an affront to all Humanity??!!!What the hell does that mean?
Yaakov Sullivan,
New York,
NY
Lets review a minute the fate of Jerusalem under its Arab owners. Every traveler from the 17th -early 20th century were unanimous in their description of Jerusalem as being essentialy a degenerated orpen cespit of filth decay and sloth. It was only the combination of Jewish activity and Britis infrastructure in the early 20th century that improved Jerusalem. When it was Jordanian the city was stiffled as a matter of Jordainian policy lest it compete with Amman, jews where barred from the old city and the tombstones on the Mt of Olives used as latrine stones. Dont lecture us about open and multi cultural cities Ibrahim the Arab world does not know the meaning of multiethnic open peaceful cities shared by all.
Danite,
You are suggesting that Israel should give up Jerusalem in order to hold on to the superficial sands of Tel Aviv? Let me spell it out to you: Tel Aviv is not, and was never, Israel's capital. Jerusalem is the eternal and indivisible capital of Israel and the Jewish people, and that is what the 'silent majority' in Israel and the Jewish world think, even the hard-core secularists, and the people in Tel Aviv and Haifa. Don't let the Gaza disengagement fool you. Israel will not relinquish or divide Jerusalem.
Jake,
Washington,
D.C.
Foxey, that was clever but you kindof broke the rythym toward the end. Got into just a tad of scapegoating. Kind of like what you were accussing Franzen of in your poem. A week or so ago you mentioned something about the Arab/Jewish school in Kfar Kana or Kama. Could you provide more details about that rare phenomenon? Is it like the school in Neve Shalom?
Yaakov Sullivan,
New York,
NY
Sorry for the delay in my reply,but I stopped taking your posts seriously a long time ago and hence stopped reading them ...but in reply..``Perhaps we should get all parties concerned to give it to the Baha`ais. What about that, KJJ, would you agree to that?``
ummmm no.. Jerusalem is fine and dandy as it is right now...The ETERNAL and INDIVISIBLE capital of Israel and the Jews with great respect to all others in the world allowing free access and visitation excepting terrorists.
KJJ,
Toronto,
Canada
Ibrahim - its amazing how you totally ignore facts and then make up your own to fill them in. Jerusalem was NEVER the capitol of ANY country OTHER THEN ISRAEL. Perhaps you could GOOGLE these 2 guys and read up abit... King David and his son Solomon. I dont expect you to however since that would reveal the truth. Before there were Christians, before Muhammed, before Rome, Greece and all the other empires there weere the Jews. Jerusalem will be shared religious wise but we will NOT carve it up like a Thanksgiving turkey to suite your whims. You pray to Mecca and Medina, the Chrisitans to Rome, the Jews to Jerusalem. There is no "Judisation" as Israel was ALWAYS Jewish (theres that pesky history book again) If you want to cut up "your capitol" go right ahead - give Yemen 1/2 or Egypt - but you wont take OUR capitol ! :)
pace306,
nyc,
ny
Ahmad: There was an agreement, just like there was the agreement over Mt. Scopus. Check out Article 8 of the 1949 Armistice Agreement, specifically sections 1 and 2 of that Article.
In modern times, is Israel required by international law to let in every Palestinian? Absolutely not! What the heck is sovereignty if others can always tell you who to let in and who not to let in? The vast majority of Muslims in Israel and the Disputed Territories who want to pray may do so, but since many violent acts have been perpetrated by those under 40 and not so many by those over 40...you see where I'm going, Ahmad? You have to pass over a border to get into Jordan, Egypt, etc. They don't have to let you in nor do the Egyptians or Jordanians have to allow me in. Syria doesn't let people into their country if a person's passport shows that they've been to Israel.
The Palestinian Authority and the vast majority of the Palestinian people have not been at peace with Israel; if you want to use the excuse of barbed wire and war-mongering on the part of Arabs as an excuse not to let Israelis into the Old City from 49-67, Israel can use the excuse of terrorism and war-mongering, intolerance and rock-throwing in not letting the Palestinian faithful into Israeli-controlled territory when the intention of those coming into Israel may be not to pray but to cause trouble. This has been war, a war caused by Palestinians, started by Palestinians, and lengthened by Palestinians, planned long before Ariel Sharon ever visited the Temple Mount in September of 2000. And there have been plenty of people from outside of the city allowed into it; are you spouting propoganda, Ahmad, or just throwing out a claim you have yet to back up with concrete facts? Is that why you want to divide this city? Because of claims you can't back up?
Finally, the Jews of Palestine - those times, they were called Palestinians too...Palestinian Jews - agreed to partition. The Arabs of Palestine and the Arab League did not. The "corpus seperatum" was a part of that plan that the Arab world rejected, and it was the Arab world that waged war on Israel in May 1948 after that rejection. If the Arab world didn't want to agree to partition, and waged war, why should Israel have felt a need to abide by the "corpus seperatum" after that flagrant violation of a UN resolution by the Arabs? After all, the main point of that resolution was the parition of the Palestine Mandate into two states - Jewish and Arab. There was a Jewish state set up - why from 1949 to 1967 was there no creation of a Palestinian Arab state? Do UN resolutions, General Assembly or otherwise, apply only to Israel in this long-running conflict but not to the Arab/Muslim world? Israel wasn't occupying the West Bank or Gaza Strip during that time, so to blame Israel for the lack of Palestinian statehood since then would be pointless and baseless. As for Jerusalem, no UN resolution of the Security Council in the wake of the Six-Day War calls on Israel to withdraw from Jerusalem. It's ours, and it's ours to stay. We liberated the eastern half of the city from those who denied us access to our religious holy sites, and unified the city - and this city should always be unified. No western Jerusalem, no eastern Jerusalem. Just Jerusalem. United and under Israeli rule. for as Winston Churchill once said to another diplomat: "You ought to let the Jews have Jerusalem; it was they who made it famous."
Would you disrespect this holy city by dividing her once again? Such a thing would almost guarantee a future war or three. We waited 2,000 years to have sovereignty over our holy sites again - you think we're just going to give it up to those who have waged war on us for 57 years? Not likely.
Jeremy Slavin,
Jerusalem,
Israel
``Truth is you haven`t been victims in sixty years.``
Thanks to Israel...
I agree with you...
AM YISRAEL CHAI....to that....
KJJ,
TORONTO,
CANADA
You can continue to voice your opinion but then people will stop listening and all you'll have left are your imaginary freinds to argue with. I am not right wing, nor am i settleler i am in fact a left, peache loevibng indivual who belives in disengagment. However i also have a brain in my head. That means i know who the sttelers are and teh right wing and if you think yuore pathetic ranting an draveing makes them angry then you are grossly underestimate them. There faith has stood the test of time and can certasinly stand your ignorence. Besdies that, as a peacenick, unity amongstr jews comes before unity with you. Since you insult my bretherin, even though i am disagree with them, it is my duty as a jew to stand up for them. Even though i may agree with many thigns you say, however dont make the mistake that i will place you before them. As soon as you cross that line. that line of respect and start dishonering my people you, Kahlid become my enemy and any sympathetic ear you once had will dissapear. Push it to far and you'll see the real Jewish charchter. How much we love each other even though we botterly disagree. The poblem is you dont know us. Kahlid, heres some advice, jews are like Olives the harder you press the more oil comes out. Again you missed teh point. Your ranting and raveing has nothing to do with the article. Keep to the point and maybe we will get somewhere. And besides, i actually think youre a jew. I mean..you sound so intelligent. It HAS TO BE THAT YOU ARE A JEW. IF NOT YUO SHOULD THINK ABOUT CONVERTING. yOU'LL HAVE A MUCH MORE RELAXING LIFE
John,
``To:KJJ "Poor little angels/going through hell"``
HUH?
SAUCE?
KJJ,
Toronto,
canada
Fox, it is you who lies as often as you breath..Accusing us of that which seems to be your modus operandi underscores your mentality.
This is not a match in name calling, but Don't you ever think that your lies won't be contested and refuted.
Khalid
Khalid Amayreh,
Wallahi I agree with you, but we shouldn't allow the extremist to beguile the uninformed and the minsinformed.
Khalid
Khalid Amayreh,
Excuse me, Steven, You call me a lier? Where exactly did I lie? Was it about Israel's judiazation program in Jerusalem? You deny this is happening? Or was it about the roadblocks and lack of access to Jerusalem? This has been in place at least since 1994, almost continuously, and before Arafat arrived on the scene?
Please ask Shimon what he thinks about the Israel police uncovering a plot by some radical Jews to destroy the Al Aksa Mosque...
There are more moderate Palestinians than you will ever be able to see....because you fall under a different category - Extremist, Intolerant, Militant... take your pick.
I disagree with Danite all the time, but at least we can show mutual respect and courtesy.
Peace-Salaaaaaaam (and yes, Shalom too), Ibrahim
Ibrahim,
Canton,
MI, USA
Ha Ha that was an excellent poem...Bet Johannes thinks its funny as I keep reminding him with his luxurious western background bored in Stockholm , stuck without a ``cause`` he has taken up this one with more enthusiasm than the residents of Jenin.Now he fancies himself to be the Palestininian National poet Laureate...from Stockholm of all places....Go figure...
KJJ,
Toronto,
Canada
KJJ--
Disney World EXISTS--it's a REALITY.
Your (and others') dream of an undivided Jerusalem--DOES NOT EXIST/WILL NOT EXIST!
.......It has NO BASIS--in reality.
Therefore--you give yourself too much credit. You (and others like you) "don't live in Disney World".............you live in a FANTASY WORLD--the/a land--where things exist in your mind or in your dreams--BUT ARE NEVER LIKELY--TO EXIST in the REAL WORLD.
What's more--it's time to STOP asking/expecting the World--to allow YOU to make ANOTHER PEOPLE (the Palestinians) SUFFER..............because of YOUR OWN Self-Destructive Tendencies--and YOUR OWN REFUSAL to deal with reality!
.......There's simply NO EXCUSE for it--NO REASON to indulge it!
A DIVIDED Jerusalem--WILL HAPPEN.......whether YOU like it or not!
.......It's time FOR YOU AND OTHERS--to accept this--and STOP bringing suffering on YOURSELVES.
Proud U.S. Defender Of Palestinians,
Washington,
DC
Come now, no retorts of how Israeli control over Jerusalem, Palestinian water, roads and borders will endure? (Reference to my earlier post, #87). I guess Jabotinsky's likudnik followers favor an "Iron Wall" to distract from the general limpness and inadequacy of their ideology.
John
hfinnish,
St. Louis,
USA
Oh yes, you are watering down the crime against humanity. May I remind you about the definition:
"A crime against humanity is an act of persecution against a group so heinous as to warrant punishment under international law. The term was first used in the preamble of the Hague Convention of 1907, and subsequently used during the Nuremberg trials as a charge for actions such as the Holocaust which did not violate a specific treaty but were deemed to require punishment."
So, it has been used mostly on judging those who had greatest responsibility on holocaust. it has nothing to do with your dream of what Jerusalem should or should not be. I recommencd that you stick with original definitions of things, because otherwise you'll only be watering them down and causing confusion.
Regarding your claim on history, I usually don't bother to base my judgements on things happened long ago if they don't have relevant connection to present. I do recognize the rights of jews to their own history and important place of their religion and also national character. That just seems to be too much for you and also arabs and palestinians. They see to have absolutely no idea how much they are actually demanding without giving anything very useful in exchange.
Also, I find it hard to believe that you could possibly believe your claim of "expansionist ambitions" because Israel has been giving up territories in last decades. It has not expanded. Also your claim of "ethnic cleansing" is laughtable. You either don't know what that word means, or you use it recklessly on purpose. If you want to know what ethnic cleansing really is about, go to see some pictures of holocaus, or pictures from war in former Yugoslavia. Numbers of arab citizens in Israel have been increasing, so it is quite impossible that there has been any ethnic cleansing. You seem to be watering down yet another crime in your pursuit of badmouthing Israel.
And do me a favour. Don't wish peace, if you are practically wishing something else.
Michael,
You said you stopped reading my posts long ago. So, do you have a ghost reader?
Words like "eternal", as I pointed out, do not have any political meaning. It is an emotive term used to satisfy the illusions of a certain constituency. That's all. You are correct however in assuming that Jerusalem will be an open city.
Yaakov Sullivan,
New York,
NY
Danite, Haven't you figured me out yet? I don't dwell on 17th century history. I have no idea what Jerusalem looked like in the 17th century. May I ask? Does it matter today?
It's bizarre how Israelis justify their policies based on ancient history.
Frankly, I don't think you find an Arab or Pro-Palestinian person who can be very proud of Jordan's occupation of the West Bank or Egypt's occupation of Gaza. I am not sure what value it is to dwell on it? Much has happened since then and the Arab World has an outstanding offer of peace based on a fair deal everyone can live with.
Now I haven't been to too many Arab cities to be honest...I thought Amman was wonderful, frankly. Most Israel's who have travelled there recently would agree. They love the food and the hospitallity. Go ask your friends who were forutnate enough to make a visit.
Now, getting back on point...I have been to East Jerusalem...it looks and feels alot like an Arab city to me....unfortantely it is under seige. Silwan looks alot like an Arab city to me as well.
My only point is this: Jerusalem should be a shared capital for both nations.
Who are the rejectionists here?
Ibrahim,
USA
Don't be so sure about what must be done and what will surely happen. I haven't seen very many fortune tellers who actually can tell the future very accurately. You are definitely not one who can.
In this world there is only one thing that is unavoidable to everyone of us. I't dying, everyone will die some day, but besides that, there is not very much what would be compulsory. Like it or not.
You claim that jews/israelis make others suffer, but you don't seem to realize that there is also palestinian side on that story. Them you are proudly defending, whatever it is. I don't really care if Jerusalem is divided. I just know it won't bring anything good to anyone and I'm quite sure that there won't be any peace, no matter what is done or left undone.
Michael,
Whew!! Try to get through that posting without gagging! And this John character has the chutzpah (I guess he would consider it an ethnic trait) to accuse Khalid of ranting and raving. "Jewish character"? "Keep to the Point" "Too smart to be an Arab" "Convert"... And one questions the use of the term "racist". Boy, is this a prime example of the distortion of humanity tribalism can engender. Where did this one get his education?
Yaakov Sullivan,
New York,
NY
How can anyone take a post seriously with such florid usage of capital letters.It makes the post impossible to read , let alone understand.
KJJ,
TORONTO,
CANADA
You have not a clue what causes Franzen may be dedicated to. His well argued points make perfect sense but that is precisely why he must become an object of scorn, or derision, of belittlement. You laugh at him because he understands something about human misery that does not fall into sync with your ideology of "my movement right or wrong". What goes around KJJ comes around. Derision and contmpt breed the same and you do not further the zionist cause by your example. The only comfort from your mockery is that it will fail in silencing Khalid. Many around the world will read him and come to understand what the Palestinians have to put up with on a daily basis.
Yaakov Sullivan,
NY,
NY
Hey yaakov, that poetry thing, you must realize being a cultured New Yorker, that postmodernist poetry has to have a touch of ambiguity and playful cadence. so it wasn't my best stuff, I am bored by too much rhyme, I promise to do better next time Johannes decides to entertain us with his prose. Next time I promise it will be set to a funky beat. Regarding the school, now pay attention, Kfar Kara. What you do is take a drive up the coastal highway north, turn off at the Afula exit and head east baby, go past Karkur and continue past Highway 6 and then hang a left at the light. You have entered Kfar Kara, a quaint town with huge homes. Ask for directions to the new high school, the Jewish Arab school is it's neighbour. If you would like on your next trip to Israel call me, I am in the book, and I will gladly take you there, so you could check out things for yourself, just bring an open mind and we will get along fine. With regards to the school in Neve shalom, I somehow recollect that that school also was part of a unique community, but I am not sure. You can probably find some written material on the subject by way of the internet. it is called "bridge across the Wadi". What has been interesting about the school for me is learning a bit more about the two cultures and their most basic of differences. As I pointed out in an earlier posting the Jews in the school are orthodox secular, how ya like that term, I made it up, sounds good eh? While the Arabs are devout Moslems on the most part. We have had some interraction between the parents, but much of our moral systems and the lieralism of the Jews clashes with the more traditional aspects of the Moslem parents. I find myself faced with not just a group that thinks in national terms but in deep religous terms, so when questions of jerusalem come up the mystical perspectives are quite different. What confuses me is that the Stalinists amoungst the Jews are willing to accept the mythos of Islam yet deem their Jewish mythos to be provincial and anachronistic. This bothers me. I myself am not religous and do not seek a new temple, and at the same time I do not accept the Islamization of the intifada. The shrill cry of "Al Aksa" is to my ears a cheap populist means to incite alot of people who would never question your religous precepts or values. Which makes this conflict and associated arguments a little lopsided. If we are to discuss Jerusalem as "Al Aksa" then both sides histories and religous viewpoints have to be taken in context. If we keep this debate secular then no side has the right to claims of Valhalla.
fox,
karkur,
israel
very well said !!! The problem is, many moslems have no respect for themselves----how can we expect them to respect the jews (and chrisitans) ?????
steven,
Toronto,
Brilliant !!!! i couldnt agree with you more....
alan,
toronto,
Insightful evidence, much that haven't been usually or ever mentioned on this forum.
Shayna,
Washington
how comes that all the "eitses" on how to makes efforts and sacrifices coems only from the "wellwishers" from the jewish side ,while the hatred comes from the arab side and states??Are you blind and deaf.Just take a peep at the arab's media and wake up to the sad reality of our position in the world and if you still believe in arabian tales then you better chang your religion.
mandy alcalay,
caracas,
venezuela
"Truth is you haven`t been victims in sixty years."
Honey, sixty years is not a very long time relative to the 4000 years of persecution.
Innoncent Palestinian victims have only their leaders and extremists to blame for their suffereing - if they had accepted partition in '48 or the plan in 2000 they wouldn't have to be subjected to this.
Shayna,
Washington
Hey Khalid regarding #99. I really would love for you to refute me. You say I am a "breather of lies" but you havn't refuted any of them as yet. I have only heard slogans and more slogans and more slogans....slogans.... ss sl slo o o o slogans. Instead of all that racist crap you serve up, stop giving me tele nova, paperback verse and tell me something that will give me any feeling that you would actually like to see peace, and not only where you are honoured and we humiliated.
fox,
karkur,
israel
``Words like "eternal", as I pointed out, do not have any political meaning``
Political meaning as opposed to what? ``Real`` meaning?? I do not follow...
Arik (a politician) says it all the time...Sounds political to me...and its a reality too...
KJJ,
TORONTO,
Canada
I had read M.Benvenisti's article once, then read most of the comments (diatribes), then reread the article to see if I had missed something. No, not really. True to form, everytime when someone kowledgeable writes an opinion piece based on hard data and keen observations about a crucial subject, it brings out the worst in people. Not only are the responses emotional bordering on hysteria but they are totally not to the point. Mr. Benvenisti's main thrust is the disappearance of the uniqueness of the city due to the building frenzy and the constatnt expansion of its borders in all directions with the real possibility that the greater Jerusalem will sprawl from Beit Shemesh to Jericho and from Ramallah to Beit Lehem or even Hebron. This is a concern voiced to me by an old classmate of mine, a 10 generation Jerusalemite! Moreover, the flight of secular well educated citizen away from the city threatens the future viability of the city as an economically independent enterprise knowing full well that the ultra orthodox citizens like those in Bnei Brak are at the bottom of the economic ladder. The threat is also to the cultural life and character of the city. These concerns have absolutely nothing to do with who had built the city in ancient times, how many times it is mentioned in the Bible, who is related to the long gone Cana'anites or who and what Abraham was or was not etc. All these non- issues are in the domain of myths which have absolutely nothing to do with today's real issues which plague us all. If all the respondents truly represent a cross section of the population in and out of Israel then 'God' help us all.
M.Nathanson,
California
Abraham was a Hebrew. He was not a Jew in the modern sense, since the concept did not exist. Nor was he a Muslim, since he neither worshipped Allah (recall that the mythology shows Abraham worshipping El Shaddai, not Yahweh or Elohim) nor believed in Muhammad. And he certainly was NOT an Arab, since Arabs did exist at the time and he was never called one nor associated with them. That is, IF HE EXISTED AT ALL.
Ahmad: The Canaanites were not Arabs. They spoke Hebrew (or rather, Hebrew is a Canaanite language) and shared religious traditions with the Israelites. Eventually, the Canaanites were converted to Judaism or Hellenized or colonized the Mediterranean world under the name "Phoenicians" -- or some mix thereof.
Your people may well indeed be descended from the Canaanites -- but only insomuch that you are descended from Jews and Samaritans. If you want to claim yourself as indigenous to Palestine, it will help you to embrace Palestinian history rather than destroy it by making it "Arab".
(By the way, there is plenty of evidence for the Second Temple...but not any for the first. Don't try and claim there was NEVER a Temple in Jerusalem, because all it does is make you look EXTREMELY ignorant...and, I might add, it goes against Islamic theology)
Steven: When the Torah was written, the only "Jews" were the descendants of Judah. It wasn't until the Babylonian Exile that Israelites became known generally as "Jews".
Adi Horon,
Your posts are a pleasure to read!
Orquest,
Riverside,
CA
"It`s bizarre how Israelis justify their policies based on ancient history."
WE DO BECAUSE WE HAVE ONE, YOU CAN NOT BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE ONE
"Now I haven`t been to too many Arab cities to be honest.."
"Now, getting back on point...I have been to East Jerusalem...it looks and feels alot like an Arab city to me....unfortantely it is under seige. Silwan looks alot like an Arab city to me as well."
WHICH ONE IS IT IBRAHIM?, MAKE UP YOUR MIND!
Raanan,
USA
``Whew!! Try to get through that posting without gagging!``
It pains me to have to agree with you :)
KJJ,
TORONTO,
CANADA
Many around the world may read what Khalid writes, but it is only one view. Not the whole damn truth about the situation, especially when he gets caught with lying almost every time. Do you ever begin to wonder that maybe their own actions have something to do with their misery? Why should anyone rally even feel any pity for someone creating his own problems?
Michael,
My family lived in Jerusalem before there was Zionism. They lived in the Old City when Montefiore built Mishkenot Sha'ananim and Beit Yisrael which is opposite Mea Shearim was called "Bitza'at Hamavet" (the swamp of death).
Jews came and drained the "Swamp of Death" and renamed it to Beit Yisrael. BTW these were not "Zionists" they built Beit Yisrael before Herzel was trained to go potty.
I have some cousins who are "Neturei Karta" and I have some other cousins who are haredi and serve in the IDF.
There was never a time when Jews did not live in Jerusalem. Jerusalem belongs to the Jews and always will.
Kyle,
Southpark,
CO
http://www.jerusalem.muni.il "Jerusalem is like no other city on earth. It is holy to the world`s three major monotheistic religions, and was fought over for three millennia by a variety of peoples and nations. Jerusalem is the capital of the State of Israel and of the Jewish people, but, in a special sense, Jerusalem belongs to the whole world."
That's encouraging, Jake. So I guess Israel has no problem with East Jerusalem being the capital of Palestine?
Terry,
Yakov..you are are very subjective individual. i wounder, did you get the pouint of what i wriote? i challenge you....... if you can accutelty state the point of what i was writing we, who live here, rather have the moral fortitude and strength of chrecthter to live live here, might consider anything you have to say. by the way mi ahve a question for you.... when was the last time you visitied youre homeland?
John,
``we, who live here, rather have the moral fortitude and strength of chrecthter to live live here, might consider anything you have to say.``
Of course you are right....
KJJ,
TORONTO,
CANADA
Yackove what is wrong with an individual expressing his loyalty to his people? If Kahlid and Ibrahim did this you would probably respect it. besides, you probably have never been here, so you wouldnt know what its like seeing your children murdered on a us. you dont know, i even say this in the name of Kahlid, he knows, hoe knows what it is like to see this, he understand loyalty to his people. he wouldnt gag if one of his brothers posted something in the like. I am worried abotu you Yakov. Any individual who would "gag" by reading soemthing has lost something very imprtant. loyalty to his brothers and sisters. Kahlid and Ibrahim dont trust such an individual. If he has no loyalty to what is cliosest to himthan, even though he may profess loyalty to you, it will ultamitly fail untill something bigger and better and more slef serving comes along. Kahlid nd Ibrahim, i know you knw what i mean. You more tha anyone, understand teh concept of brothers in arms and the loyalty that means, if someone were to over cross this line you wouldnt want to know them. Dont trust this Jew. He lives in America, porbably ahs nver been here and there fore does nt know youre hardships nor ours. He has never experienced the pain of death. The most is the pain of haveing to pay a parking fine. be weary with whom you make youre alliences. good luck my friend Achmed Ibn Mouchammed
Achmed,
NY,
Michael--
I often acknowledge "the other side" in this conflict. .......You haven't read and/or haven't seen other posts I have made.
.......So--there is no basis for that statement.
Regarding Being A Fortune Teller:
You don't have to be a "fortune teller" to know--what IS likely to make something happen--and what IS NOT likely--to make something happen.
When you put your hand over fire Michael--do you know what will likely happen? Sure you do--you will likely get burned.
.......And--you don't have to be or seek a "fortune teller"--to tell you that/for you to know that.
Same with this issue.
The "handwriting"--is already--on the wall!
.......If Jerusalem--IS NOT DIVIDED--you don't have to be, nor seek, a fortune teller--to give you/for you to know--the likely outcome of the story.
.......It is the same as it is with fire--someone will likely get burned. In this case--there will be--NO PEACE.
Point made--"game, set and match"--Michael.
.......I hope you (and others) get it.
Jerusalem--WILL BE/MUST BE DIVIDED--to ensure the possibility of there being--lasting peace!
.......So, Michael--I'll save my "fortune telling" for/will pull out my "crystal ball"--for situations--that actually require them.
.......This situation--does not!
Proud U.S. Defender Of Palestinians,
Washington,
DC
Accessol you write--
"I can `t think there are going to be many tourists in years to come wanting to visit a boring monolithic Jewish-only, shomer shabbat, glat kosher, yeshiva filled city with all its historic Palestinian buildings destroyed and replaced by eye-sore Israeli architecture (with a small `a`). A few American Zionists maybe, who cannot understand the beauty of cultural diversity"
Dear Accessol:
I am one of those tourists who celebrates diversity and feel the current plans to make Jerusalem a Jewish monopoly very unfair. Who can think of historic Jerusalem without the Christians, Muslims and the Jews. I know I can't. Therefore, I will condemn the present plans in all its form.
No one religious group should have a monopoly on the Holy City. It should be a shared political entity. That's the most meaningful way to ensure the rights of all are upheld and are equal. So today, until the Israeli government ensures this---I will not be a tourist traveling to the Holy City.
Dutch
Dutch ,
"And do me a favour. Don`t wish peace, if you are practically wishing something else."
Michael, you claim we can't predict the future, but you can read my mind? If I am not wishing for peace, then what am I wishing for? It seems you can't relate to Arabs who actual want to make peace with Israel.
You can play games if you like, but peace is what I am looking for...and it looks like this:
A Palestinian State based on the 1967 borders with minor and equal territorial exchanges.
A open, unified and shared Jerusalem, the capital of Israel and Palestine (by the way, once this happens, perhaps you will get more than 1 or 2 countries to put their Israel Embassy in your capital city).
A solution to the refugee situation that doesn't alter Israel's Jewish demographics...I understand this is a sensitive issue for Jewish folks.
Sorry- but it is not purely Islamic Terror that is holding up this deal....The bigger problem lies with an Israeli State which refuses to set its own borders.
Anyway, save your accusations and try to be more helpful to the cause of moderation and comprimise.
Ibrahim,
USA
Last I checked there wasn't de facto aparthied, but instead peace in america because the native americans have something the Palestinians in gaza and the west bank don't have. Something called rights.
ted,
israel
Prior to the seventh century, Mecca was home to a thriving Jewish community. Now, any non-Muslim who steps in Mecca is subject to the death penalty. I am afraid that relinquishing a portion of Jerusalem who lead to another Mecca, in which non-Muslims would be subject to Mecca. If the Arab world wants a shared Jerusalem, let them open up Mecca to us infidels
Herbert Kaine,
Berkeley,
CA
The message of the holly scriptures:The Torah,the Quran and the Bible is one and the same for all of us Jews,Muslims and Christians:live a moral life in peace,be civilised,look after your family,love and respect your neighbours whomever they may be. The message was transmitted by carefully selected stories and legends which could exalt and appeal to primitive people thousands of years ago.Some opportunists and extremists hang on to the fantazy stories about great eroic battles and belonging to a great blood line instead of the real meaning of those stories.Lots of simple people believe them.How does Ahmad Abouali know that he descends directly from Cananite tribes who lived in Palestine thousands of years ago?He doesn't.He may have descended from bedouin tribes in Arabian peninsula or northern Africa.How do I know if I descend from the ancient Hebrew tribes rather than from some European converts to Judaism?.I don't know nor do I care what blood runs through my veins [as long as it's healthy and it doesn't have too much cholesterol which is much more important than my "heroic and pure" blood line LOL].When I hear Jews saying that they have a God given right to all of The Holly Land and Muslim saying that Jews betrayed the Profet Mohammed in Mecca some 1400 years ago and that's why they deserve to be slaughtered today it makes me wonder how can people in this modern age be so simple and narrow minded.
Daniel Leopold,
Sydney,
Australia
``---I will not be a tourist traveling to the Holy City. ``
On behalf of a lot of Jews...I say good...
KJJ,
TORONTO,
CANADA
``Last I checked there wasn`t de facto aparthied, but instead peace in america because the native americans have something the Palestinians in gaza and the west bank don`t have. Something called rights.``
YAWN
KJJ,
TORONTO,
CANADA
God bless you. wish they all think this way. Thank You
Yehuda,
USA
what is this noise about palestinian sufferings? I am a palestinian too, though I am a jew born in Jerusalem. As a matter of fact all the jews are palestinians !! it's just semantics and no more. especially the people born under the british or otoman mandate. the arabs are no more palestinian than the jews.the name of Israel is just a name and no more and I don't see why the arabs sent by the arabian countries claimed as their city whilst during the time when it was under Jordany they didn't care -and dare- to claim it.
traian,
torino,
italy
emboldened by the oil and petroleum lobby plus the arabs states who created all this mess, Arafat(who was not a palestinian,but an egyptian and died of AIDS) thought that he had the right to implant the palestinian flag on this city. I ask which right? the right of Bonnie and Clyde?
traiano,
torino,
italy
Avraham was a proud jewmoslchrist and so was Brahma ( funny the similarities) "ki beti yekareh beth tefilati lekol haamim" translation from Psalms: So that my House shall be called my house of worship for all the nations. to all palestinians have you tried Gandism , instead of understanding suicide bombings, cause i dont undersatnd it, better i dont think it should be understood or glorified . to all my jewish brothers can we try again to speak to them for real? is a monument more important then a life? is this all there is to religion walls , tombs, shrines , sacrifices? man i tell you that God is probably thinking " dam it didn't Igave em all the tools?, its for them to get along not to fight over Me." what if you give a palestininian child who needs a heart , a settler'S heart who died in accident? so what now ...will be welcomed at the Dome of the rock? can he pass through a checkpoint easily? come on enough tearing each other apart , enough blood has been splilled, and that is the most sacred shrine/mosque/syngogue/tomb or stone that we overlooked.
rodney king,
earth.,
I'm sure Jerusalemites would be very glad to offer the hotel rooms you both won't occupy to those among 2 million tourists that are visiting Israel & obviously Jerusalem this year. There's a very large jump in tourism this year. Let accesshol stay where he is - grumbling, angry, blinded by hatred.
Alex,
NYC,
USA
Herbert, Jews never lived in Mecca, they lived in Madina, but not Mecca.
Besides, Jerusalem had been Arab and Cannanite long before the appearance of Abraham and Israel.
Khalid
Khalid ,
Fox, it is you, not me, who have to prove your good will. Your messages on this forum show you are an extremist. YOu are interested in hasbara..not in peace.
If you are interested in peace, then you would recognize the "other" as full human beings, with human, civil and national rights.
I recognize the rights of Jews to live here, but I insist that that others also have a similar right..No right overrides the other.
Khalid
Khalid Amayreh,
Horon, Abraham was "Hebrew" because he "avar" or crossed over..crossed Jordan over to the West Bank, it is a purely linguistic matter..There is no such a think as a Hebrew race before Jacob.
Abraham was an Iraqi, a person who broke the idols and surrendered to God. Anybody who does so is called Muslim in the Arabic language...from the root "Aslama"....
Islam didn't start with Muhammed (PBUH), it began with Adam...the first Muslim...We consider all Prophets from Adam to Muhammed as Muslims since they came with the same message..the message of monotheism and the oneness of God.
Khalid
Khalid ,
Muhammad was never in Jerusalem. First of all, what he relates of him jumping up to Heaven on his horse el-Biteq is a night vision, in other words, a dream. Secondly, the report tells of having been brought (in his dream) to thew "farthest mosque", and Jerusalem is never mentioned, not in the Koran and not in the Hadith. Thirdly, scientific study of this incident is generally of the opinion tyhat the "farthest mosque" refers to a mosque in Northern Arabia and not in Jerusalem. There was no mosque on the Temple Mount till the time of the Caliphate, 8th century CE. So all the Muslim claims to Jerusalem, the al-Aqsa ("the tip") mosque and the Dome of Omar are founded on dreaqms - and it's quite possible that Muhammad, being an illiterate camel driver, never "wrote" the Koraqn at all!
Yonatan,
Kefar-Sava,
Israel
I can read what you write and when I don't see very much true attitude for peace, I don't tend to believe one really believes in it. I don't believe in peace that is to be made by someone dictating everything.
What I believe to be the solution, IF there even is any solution, it is palestinians state based on 1967 borders with some modifications, maybe not full territorial exchanges but very near it. Something similar that was proposed by Clinton. I also don't believe that there can be any return to territories that will remain israeli, but they will probably be compensated.
Regarding Jerusalem, it will probably be shared, but honestly, I don't believe it will bring anything good to anyone. I don't really share that much optimism on that issue. There is much more than islamic terror, there is also political islamism that is kind of curse in most of the arab world. Israel is ready to settle things, but not if palestinians fail to do anything to actually get anywhere. As I said, I don't believe in peace that is only in talks. If nothing happens, I don't believe there is anything real.
Michael,
I can count the odds to make my opinion on what is likely to happen, and unfortunately, I find no reason to believe in peace by dividing Jerusalem. Heck, I find it even hard to believe there could even possibly be any real peace because frankly, I see absolutely no development towards it. So, in my opinion it is very much one and the same, if Jerusalem is divided or not. It won't probably change anything at all. This is my view until I see some real development.
Michael,
The Jews in Arabia were probably Arabs converted to Judaism long before Islam appeared as a world religion the same way as Ethiopians converted to Judaism before most of them re-converted to a very specific and local form of Christianity. If we discard the myths and legends and try to look at things from an historical point of view we will probably discover that Judaism developed over a fairly long period of time in what was at the time Canaan and those who adopted that monotheistic religion as opposed to those still believing in idols Polytheistic deities became eventually Jews not before the country split into two kingdoms one of which Israel was conquered by the Assyrians and some inhabitans but not all were deported.Samaritans today living in Nablus and Holon claim to descend from the ancient Northern kingdom of Israel and maybe they do.They may be the only real descendants from the old Israelites and Caananites but their number is very small if I am not mistaken they are quite inbred which is not very healthy.I personally believe that neither the Jews nor the Arabs today descend from the old Caananites even if both may be related to a certain extent to that ancient people.Judaism,Islam and Christianity are cultural not biological phenomenons and in fact have a common basically moral message for humanity.The differences between the three monoteistic religions are exploited by opportunistic power hungry politicians and religious people to further their own aims.The same goes for racial purity and glorious descendance from unique mythical ancient peoples.Those who combine both to attack others are extremely dangerous people
Daniel Leopold,
Sydney,
Australia
Daniel, I tend to agree with you. This proves that Judaism had been a universalistic and integrationalistic religion before the appearance of the Talmud and Rabbinism which eventually morphed the erstwhile pure montheistic regligion into what looks like a particularistic and segregationalistic sect.
Khalid
Khalid Amayreh,
Hebron ,
Why oh why Khalid do you act like a deer caught in the headlights of a truck, frozen. I asked you to refute my so-called "lies" and what do you do, you react as if I have humilated you. I suggest seeing someone professional about this honour problem of yours. Again rather than refuting what I say, you send me hysterical childlike responses calling me an extremist. Go ask Yaakov Sullivan if I am extremist only bent on making your little life hell. I have nothing to prove to you regarding my peaceful intentions, but if you continue to question my right to exist in this land, than I see nothing wrong in questioning yours. But NON like a good autocrat bent on sharia law and the destruction of Israel and democracy you lash out, not with evidence and words of peace, but simpleton replies.
fox,
karkur,
israel
Jerusalem's former deputy- Mayor Meron Benvenisti is such an embittered person that he can see nothing of good and value in Jerusalem. In fact with all the problems, and there are many, many Jerusalem remains a uniquely beautiful city, and one which living and being in , is for some of us, a sacred duty and great privilege. It would be easier to address criticisms of the City,if they were done more out of a spirit of constructiveness than out of such bitterness.
Shalom Freedman,
Jerusalem ,
Israel
Pace, I'm curious, Jerusalem always being Jewish, what about this diaspora most of you cling on, where you were expelled for revolting against the Romans? Did that not happen, or is almost everyone an idiot for believing that? With so many owners of this land, not one group can claim specific ownership of Jerusalem. The fact is that DNA of Jews and Arabs is very similar. Jews intermarried in Europe and abroad, obviously losing that pure Jewish blood. The Palestinians, well you have Christians who have resided there for over mellenias. Then you have Muslims there also. Who's to say with all the ownership of that land, intermarriages, mixed race marriages, having sex between different ethnicities, how can you exactly say that Jerusalem is only the capital for Jews? P.S., why is it that the Palestinians as a whole tend to have way more people that have the semetic look than Israelis? Something to think about :)
Irish Sensation,
Thanks Foxie for the info on the school. I applaud the effort. Working with young minds to cross barriers. The religious/secular dicotomy is a real challenge and when it is bewtween two different religious communities all the more so. The Arabs and Jews in Neve Shalom, I believe, are all secular. They not only share the same school, but the same community as well.
Yaakov Sullivan,
New York,
ny
I know what the word "eternal" means. I am saying that it is not a political term. It has no place in political negotiations. It is a loaded, emotional term meant to undermine the claim of your opponent.
Yaakov Sullivan,
New York,
ny
Jews are not a race, it's a people of many races, ashkenazi, mizrahi, sephardi, african, you name it. Who's more semitic or not have no importance in the matter. Many semitic people that did not originate in Israel now live in Israel. Most palestinians come from Jordan, which is not Israel. Jerusalem should belong to israelis, because Jerusalem is located in Israel. Duh! However, Jerusalem is more Jewish because the remains of biblical architecture in the holy city is mostly Jewish.
I should remind you also that not all Jews were expelled by the Romans. Many Jews remained in Israel and later flourished in numbers.
Maccabee,
Los Angeles,
USA
Shayna, I have been reading the Old Testament for over sixty years, along with historical and archeological texts which are part of my career. But it takes only a superficial reading of the well-known Biblical tales to learn that it was the tribes led by Abraham who came into Canaan with not always peaceful intentions. The saga of Shechem (Nablus), with the horrible collective punishment exacted by the sons of Jacob, the mass slaughter of the inhabitants after the men had all in good faith allowed themselves to be cirucumcised (ouch! what kind of god has an appetite for chopped-off prepuces?) in order to become as brothers to the Hebrews, was only a prelude to further holocausts perpetrated upon the innocent natives. Joshua was "told" to slaughter all the inhabitants of the land to make room for the Hebrews, later accounts tell of Samuel's demands that all the Amalekites, men, women, babies, animals, be slaughtered--and this happened more than once (pesky Amalekites)! David cut off 200 Philistine foreskins to pay the bride price for Michal (and only 100 were needed). Urusalim was taken by war from the Jebusites, who had originally founded the "Jewish" city. The scriptures of full of gore, hatred, racism, blood-lust. Even the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha, by today's standards of tolerance of alternative sexuality, can be termed as a hate crime inspired by homophobia. Yes, the Hebrews and Jews were subject to persecution in the scriptures, they often showed love for other ethnic groups (the story of Ruth is a great example), but let us refrain from misleading blanket statements about persecution directed only against the "chosen people."
