Why Israel must become a secular state: a thought for Yom Kippur 5770

God brought the Jewish people back into their own land - so now you want to reject him by becoming a secular state-- wake up

Yes, yes, no, no!..

It is of the utmost importance to awaken, rekindle an awareness of Divine Providence.For it is only by That Providence Israel has reemerged as a victorious infant, despised and mocked by the "unblieving" world.Can these bones live? Providence enabled you to "live "with language and customes intact. There is no other logical explanation!!!

It is of the utmost importance to awaken, rekindle an awareness of Divine Providence.For it is only by That Providence Israel has reemerged as a victorious infant, despised and mocked by the "unblieving" world.Can these bones live? Providence enabled you to "live "with language and customes intact. There is no other logical explanation!!!

true! ..it doesn't matter what the religion is, allow it to be involved in the running of the country and it will FAIL!

God will definitely kick you out if you go secular.

Strenger's article is based on imaginary facts, even if commonly believed. 1) Ben Gurion did NOT compromise with the Orthodox. He established a militantly secularist, godless government bent on creating a "New Jew" unrelated to the Jews of history. A professor I met in Italy told me that Israel is the most antisemitic country in the world today; Israeli politicians and celebs can say things that would get them, umm, crucified in other countries. e.g. Shulamit Aloni, Yossi Sarid, etc. 2) Orthodoxy does NOT control the lives of Israelis. Israelis are already today infamously secular and happily engage in eating non-Kosher, violations of Shabbat and pretty much every other Jewish law. Israelis are infamous sex fiends, getting into the wierdest sex scandals with all kinds of victims - even when they travel abroad. Without Judaism, Israel simply doesn't have the will to survive. A secular Israel will disappear as a state, Jewish or otherwise.

Our problem is "One Nation Out from Under God!" Our Declaration of Independence is addressed to God.The author is mistaken as there are religious symbols and quotes on our major monuments and government buildings the Supreme Court displays the engraved copy of the 10 commandments that had to be covered with a curtain during one of Obama's recent speeches. Displays like that over a governing body's activities puts a chill over them because it suggests that they too are accountable for their corrupt acts. The USA's wellspring of liberty was reliance upon the timeless truths revealed in the law and the prophets. But it is a mistake to reduce revealed truth as just dead rote law to be followed as a robot follows code. Then we grow cold and harden, consequently we reject the truth itself. The Law is the roadsigns that tell us where we are not to go. The Spirit that wrote that law and lives within us opens our eyes to the liberty of the many roads of choice available.

The nearer the church (or synagogue or mosque) the further from "god."

YES! YES! WELL DONE.

The paradox of the article is that it's missing the critical inquiry, why the Jews are still around. I wonder where Mr. Strenger and many others would be with all their secularity if it wouldn't be for their orthodox ancestors. They would probably belong to some other nation, as the case with millions of Jews without ever knowing that they ones belonged to the Jewry.

This is a brillant article and it should be read both by all Israleites and Palestinians.Just imagine both Israel and Palestine becoming secular states--it will be bliss. Thank you Carlo fr yr brillance

"Nowhere else are Jews trying to impose their religious creeds on each other;" Jews have always tried to impose their religious creeds on each other Mr. Strenger. For obvious reasons, persuasion and ostracism were the only tools available in the diaspora. In fact take away the religious qualifier and just say creeds. Remember the young Jewish communists and bundists who would stand outside synagogues eating ham sandwiches on Yom Kippur? Religion is a creed, Zionism is a creed. The glue that sticks Jews to each other is religion. The glue that sticks Jews to the land of Israel is religion. Zionism was the glue that, along with rejection from both sides, succeeded in stick the non-religious to Judaism. There's no fast-forwarding to secularism in Israel until Israel has decided where it wants to go. Will it be oppression or concession?

hi dan, - i'm not sure exactly where you're heading w/your comment on jewish identity within the state of israel. how is "nationality defined by the modern nation state" in your view? & where's the difference compared to other democratic nation states? i think there's no doubt the identity has evolved, particularly over the past 2 centuries. it has spread in several directions & there's nothing homogeneous about it anymore. there's still a distinct identification there unless assimilation has in fact taken place. what's crucial in this debate is that the jewish state was in fact conceived as a modern nation state w/a secular political system & as a democracy. so the issue is one of consistency. israel does make a full, vibrant jewish identity possible, in various forms. but each one has to be free as to how he wishes to realize this. in any case, a national "israeli" identity is a fact already that can't be altered, wherever one stands w/reg. to "jewishness" individually.

thanks for response. of course it will depend on who sets the overall definition, as always. one thing is clear though, whether from a secular /religious point of view, you're dealing w/a people, ie in modern terms an ethnic group. this has always been the case & is central to judaism itself. the UN resolution on partition spoke clearly about a "jewish" as opposed to an "arab" state. since emancipation the jewish tree has grown in all kinds of directions, incl. the rise of reformed streams of judaism as well as a thorough secularization, in a very parallel way to what has been happening w/reg. to christianity in the western world. what follows is that only one "label" remains covering the jewish world as a whole - the label of an ethnic group. this was at the core of the zionist movement & the state's founding fathers who were largely secular people, w/a socialist /humanistic outlook. it's the reason why you got the law of return not following halakhic but ethnic lines.

speaking as a religious Diaspora Jew, I agree wholeheartedly with the separation of religion and state, however it does raise a host of issues (not least challenging the vested interests involved!). More importantly it raises a question around Jewish identity within such a state. From a religious and cultural view, this identity doesn't correspond to a nationality as defined by the modern nation state and this issues would come to the fore in a secular nation state and have to be addressed head on - currently it seems to me it is always lurking in the background but not given sufficient attention. Bringing this issue more into focus would be another benefit of this radical and necessary change

If Egypt, Jordan or Lebanon becomes Islamic (as majorities probably desire) Hamas will be morally pumped up and materially supported. This will push more Israelis to jump ship, those who are able.

This book from Verso Press is a must-read. For those who don't know, Israel Shahak (d. about 9 yrs ago) was an outspoken courageous Israeli peace activist and Shoah survivor.

Secularize to much and trying to turn the haredi into objects of hate and eventually Israel will officially cease to be a jewish state and when that happens the entire reason for its very existence is destroyed. Jews live all around the world in other peoples countries as minorities sometimes persecuted sometimes not. If Israel becomes just another secular state then there is no more reason for it to exist because it was created to be a jewish state not just another westernized secular one. Jews from US & western Europe who are living very comfortable lives give it all up to come to Israel where things are harder because they want to live in a jewish state not just around jews. Israel has problems with some haredi ( a minority ) but it also has problems with arabs & secular jews. Secularizing the country isn't the solution to all Israels problems & it won't bring about more religious tolerance or end problems with religious jews who won't change their views.

You are no chosen people, god makes no distinctions, the only thing that makes you special is the believe that all your suffering makes you special in front of god. But it does not.

All prophesies became true, that's what the Witnesses of Yehova tell me as well.

You have some good ideas, although I may not agree with all of them. Once again, the state of Israel encompasses varieties of Judaism. How you may define secular, may not be viewed the same by another group of Jews. So, who will set the common definition of secular? From the comments, many think that that Israel is already a secular state. As food for thought, was Israel established under the U.N. mandate as a Jewish State? How did the same debate, that is happening now, materialize then?

The author sings the praises of secularism without defining it. How does he envision it applying to Israel? What are its limits? This is a general paean to the idea of liberalism, with no substance to it. Europe might not be the best defense for his cause, either, given the withering of religion there, coexisting with ineffectual state-affiliated churches in several countries. Europe today is less about secular tolerance than the withering of traditional religion.

Torah and Jews and Israel are one.

wake up!

I don't know where Mr. Strenger gets his understanding of Europa Secularis. There are many people in the member states who are very happy being "who they are" in their nations. Even the Nederlanders, whose sense of nationhood never hit the headlines are proud of their country. In fact, one of the problems that some Dutch pose when the issue of Turkish membership is not that they are Moslems, but that will inundate their country lookin' for a better life, the way other Southern Europeans have moved North with their "Eurocards". Yes, some Nederlanders resent "foreigners", even if they are Europeans. That being said, Jews in Israel like being Jewish, except for Mr. Strenger and those of his ilk. Were he and his friends go to Europe, they, too, would be "foreigners".

Islamic countries can be as extremist as they want and no one dares question it. Israel, however, allows more religious freedom than any Islamic country in the world, including the freedom to not worship at all. But look who has to constantly bow to international pressure. Here's a way to separate the sane, rational believers from the fanatics. Go to Israel and ask Jews to stop being Jewish. They'll just give you a puzzled look. Then go to any Islamic country and ask Muslims to stop being Muslim. They'll bury you up to your chest and stone you to death without hesitation.

That i'm for any place,all the places.but some of our posters are very busy with all Israeli problems.Every domestic policy,law,polls, movies,music,all becoming foreign affairs. Now some of the 2 billion people that go frenzy every time the Pope is visting,and some of the 1.4 billion followers of the Mullahs,and Ayatollahs are preaching us about secularism.

If Medinat Yisrael, the State of ISRAEL where I live, work and which I LOVE & Defend was decreed by your G-D why do you then live in the Galut and leave us "seculars" to LIVE here LOVE & DEFEND her. Come HOME already

Once the ultra-orthodox gain the totalitarian control over Israel that they seek, no democracy will be a ble to support the continued existence of Israel which was established, not by some mythical God, but by the United Nations. Religion and State are separated in all happy, prosperous, successful and equable societies. As the Jewish people lose faith in ther myths so they will ose unwavering support for Israel unless Jewishness is re-defined as an exemplar of secular social democracy and tolerance.

This article is the same old secular argument, which, as it always does, only offers an alternative method to achieve the same harm. As always, it targets on religion, with its hatreds and wars. Those things are true, but underneath that truth is a deeper truth. The underlying basis is a desire for power, wealth and hegemony. Secularists, with their relative values, also strongly pursue these things.

"There are lessons here too for Israel/Palestine." Very much so, and no doubt George Mitchell knows them well.

"Israeli theocracy" crys the supporter of Iran and Saudi Arabia,Hamas and Hizbollah.the model of"secular liberalism".that are supported by hypocritical Australia.The land thieves and Aboriginal killers.

"This is why Europe embarked on the long slow process of secularization"And they are not there yet.Would you call Spain or Italy secular? What about Portugal,and Ireland,Polen,and Greece?They might have seperation of church and state,but it is a"cosmetic"a facade.In those countries the church is"above the law"and with immense power.There is also many Christians political parties,Christian democrat,and christian liberal,and even Christian socialist. But i agree that Israel should be secular state

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Theology/Who_is_a_Jew/Types_of_Identity/Cultural_Identity/secularismpossible/response.shtml

I'm not surprised, given that the vast majority of Jews are atheists.

Israel should and will remain as a flagship of worldwide Jewry, and a homeland for all Jews, defended by a Jewish army. However, the chokehold on marriage, burial, conversions etc. that the Haredim and the Rabbinate have over all Israelis, the vast majority of whom are secular or only traditionally relgious, must cease.

Laws that most nations follow were given to Moses. Jews will not change to please this fool. Secular? Look at the Russian Jews who weren't allowed to have "religion'. Most have become gentiles due to ignorance. Secular? Bologna. If Israel gave up her G-d, she would be cursed. Jews made one mistake though, the Levites were to be the law makers, not the Rabbis.

If politics must become pragmatic, why is Israel exchanging 1000 terrorists for 1 IDF soldier, knowing full well that thus Hamas will be encouraged to kidnap more soldiers? Isn't that the epitome of illogical, non-pragmatic behaviour?

Even though created in France by Escoffier for Dame Nellie Melba, still we, former musicians, think of Australia, food, music, and women...

"Homeland for the Jewish people'? Israel is under an order from a higher authority than that of men. Secular governments try and follow laws that were given to Moses. Seems Israel is one of the few that obeys His laws rather than that of say, Russia. Thank G-d for Israel.

'declaring Israel a non-Jewish state', as Dr Seidner suggests in his post. Israel is a predominantly Jewish state because the majority of its people are Jews and the predominant religion is Judaism. That will remain the case whether or not Judaism is the official state religion. The debate is about whether the Ultra Orthodox view should be the official state view, with its strictures imposed on all, or whether church and state should be separated - a more accurate term I think than 'secular' - and religious belief be a private matter left to the individual. There is considerable merit in leaving the temporal business to the state and the spiritual business to the church. We see in religious history, esp. Christian and Muslim, the great dangers of an inflexible faith dictating the direction of nations. When right-wing rabbis start exhorting soldiers to fight to conquer Eretz Israel, these dangers are close-up in modern Israel. The Ultra Orthodox should have no official state role.

A lot of commentators show the typical behaviour of people who prefer the religious (revealed "truth") aproach. You don't have to listen to reason. After all, you know that you yourself are "right" and therefore everybody else simply has to be wrong. No need to listen to his arguments because they too have to be wrong. Monotheistic religions are all intolerant. They have the truth, everybody else is wrong! How anybody in his right mind can suggest that peaceful coexistence is possible under these conditions is beyond me, but it proves another thing. Prople following revealed "truths" often think that THEY are the only ones thinking logically and everybody else is not following reason. Duh!

Mr Strengo has made an intelligent and rational argument. I agree with him wholeheartedly! But as several respondents have pointed out, we are then left with the problem of how to ensure that Israel remains a Jewish state, i.e., the state of the Jews. If we are able to thrash out the question of what makes a Jew a Jew and what makes a Jewish state a Jewish state, the way will be clear for separation of religion and state in Israel. Dare we hope?

Clinging to its policy of ethnic and religious cleansing has brought Israel into major, global conflicts, spinning off terrorism and potential World War III globally. This is an intolerable situation, and incontrovertible proof that theocracies have no place in the modern world. On the other hand, the USA and Europe have proven that the secular model of government which protects religious liberty has done more to uplift and enrich religious life than any previous historical development. The marketplace of ideas weeds out dominance of fanatical religious elements. Democratic choice, and the free exercise of logic establish an atmosphere in which the search for religious truth has been blessed and enriched more than in any previous historical social context. Religious freedom, with peaceful interfaith dialogue is an incomparable treasure of modern life.

Jews were in Arab lands before muslims over half of all Israeli Jews are sephardi or Mizrahi so who stole whose food.

Very informative and needs to be pursued and pondered by the millions living in this tormented part of the world. Tormented because the (present) three monotheistic religions were formulated here. Yet many wars were fought, won and then lost here among these three and in their names and as proxies. It pains us nowadays to watch men of the cloth shadowing men of politics for every official and non-official occasion - even in Europe. Each side trying to use the other for domination of the human mind. Hypocrates who never give up. There is still hope. I believe in the end the human mind will prevail.

Thank you! Israel needs to become a secular Jewish democracy - what our founders always intended. Jews should not be subject to religious coercion in their own homeland. Religious politics and influence in government are at the root of many problems in our society.

do you mind if I try making it - Apple and honey tart cooked with light sour cream, Mmmmmm! I like the Jewish, ancient sounding name, "Rosh Hashana" and the custom of apples dipped in honey. You do realize, Morris, our Australian honey is the best, and Granny Smith apples (green tart cooking apples are named after Maria Ann Smith) a White settler to Australia from Sussex in England, 1838. Granny Smith apple seedlings developed from French crab apples that had been growing in Tasmania... I had a French grandmother five generation removed... isn't the multicultural experience a beautiful thing? Cheers.

into the 21st century. We are already seeing the inevitable ethical results of pursuing these archaic policies. The only reason that Israel maintains the support that it does in the U.S. is because the U.S. mainstream media does not report on the school segregation, the housing segregation, the treatment of the treatment of Israelis who marry Palestians, the treatment of Israeli Palestinians who marry non-Israeli Palestinians, etc., the treatment of the occupied, etc. None of my friends, Jewish or non-Jewish, understand the discriminatory laws and institutions that exist in Israel. I only learned about them last year after Gaza by reading the Jerusalem Post and Haaertz on line. The ethnocracy is not only archaic and morally wrong, but it is unsustainable. Israel is quickly running out of Jews willing the immigrate. Israel will be facing massive emigration of its talented and educated class. Best to create a modern and just society now, while it is still possible.

The major flaw of the article is to compare Christian Europe, and Christianity for that matter, with Jewish State of Israel, and Judaism for that matter. What the author is suggesting for Israel is to cease being a Jewish state. Mr. Strenger do not understand that Judaism is religion AS WELL AS nationality, because Judaism is HISTORICAL religion as opposed to Christianity and Islam that are natural religions. That means the Jewish state cannot exist without Judaism, as opposed to,say, Spain, that can exist Christian or Moslem. The basic foundation of Judaism rests on three conceptions: God, Torah, Land of Israel. That's why Jewish State of Israel must be deeply vested in Judaism in order to exist as a Jewish State. If Israel stops being the Jewish State, it has no place in the Land of Israel. That is what enemy of Jews want: to remove Judaism from Israel.

The fanatacism of the Haredim is, when you get down to it, the greatest "existential threat" to Israel of them all. Jewishness is an ethnicity, or rather, a constellation of linked ethnicities. To insist that a dogmatic adherence to what the rabbis declare is a necessary part of Israeli identity is to cut Israel off from most of the world's Jews, especially those in th4e industrialized world. Ben Gurion's notorious "compromise" was indeed a disaster, and the state has been paying the price ever since. No government has had the guts to create a written constitution to replace the ad hoc one that now obtains, in all its ambiguity. That constitution should eliminate the obvious defects in the present political system, starting with the special preferences accorded to the ultra-orthodox, but also the dreadful method of proportional representation that hands enormous clout to tiny sects. In the absence of these changes, Israel is headed for corrosive internal strife.

The Israeli Taliban, the ultra right and settlers have almost total control over Israeli society. Israel IS a Taliban Society. Those who are not Taliban - that is to say students of radical right wing religious fanaticism, have no significant voice in Israeli society. Ok, it is still possible to see an uncensored version of a pre-censored American movie. Big deal. The israeli right has won it's war for control of the society. And the religious right has won control of the war. If they had not won the war, would we be discussing this?

If I were a politician I would not want a constitution. A constitution ties the hands of politicians. And provides a standard to which they must hew Israel has no constitution because it was born amidst disorder. Too busy fending off those intent upon exterminating Israel, it simply adopted the existing law of the British Mandate as it's basic law. And now, 60 years later, that 'basic law' is a malleable realm for all sorts of corruption, and degeneracy. Whether or not to reign in it's politicians by reform and a constitution is something Israelis must decide. Israelis might be most hospitable to the current total and unrestrained corruption./ If so, they have what they want, and what else might 'democracy' be?

1.A blessed Yom Kippur to hungry university students. Get ready for the most interesting topic for thousands of years. 2.Jesus of Nazareth is indeed The Messiah, King of the Jews and The Son of God. 3.For those who find it hard to believe the above statement, better get ready to describe someone who can hit all birds with one stone as follows: a.weds two peoples, two nations and two religions into a single state b.reunites the separated children of Abraham c.confidently sets all political prisoners free d.provides exit strategy for all foreign troops and militants preventing further loss of life or limb for liberators and locals e.ends 6000 years of waiting f.ends 2000 years of weeping g.gathers exiles home h.ends all wars and conflicts 4.Even more amazing is how JC can accomplish all of the above in the flash of lightning and by simply changing one iota.

As a Christian, I was reading Ezk 16:59-63. Only in truly repenting and accepting God's offer of forgiveness through His Anointed who walked among you 2000 years ago, and Who will return in clouds of glory, will you experience what Jer 31:31-34 spoke of to you. He longs to be gracious to you, for you are His people. Turn to Him before it is too late. Ezk 38-39 is about to come to pass.

Israel can be as Jewish as it wants to be! That's why Israel was created over 3,000 years ago. We observant Jews will not back down!

But i would not hold my breath for either. Israel justifies teh Muslim approach to teh blurring of th e distinction between religion and governance. They truley do belong in the Middles East.

Until the Israeli people wake up and realize how much evil the their people have committed for 80 odd years, nothing is going to change, The problem is that there are 300,000+ illegal settlers who believe that a fictional entity gave them a strip of land and they will continue to take even more as long as they can. If secular people actually gave a sh*t in Israel this thing would be over, so the next step is for us caring and sane people to force them to understand their ways with Boycotts and Sanctions

Israel should become a secular state but should enable religious practice and subsidize religious institutions.

If religion is no longer the official and legal definition of Judaism, then being Jewish in Israel will be a distinction without a religious component. A strictly secular Jewish identity would be racial, and non-Jewish citizens of the State of Israel would be considered racially, as opposed to religiously, distinct. Without the religious cover, no one who is not of ethnic Jewish origin would be able to become "Jewish," and therefore, considered a separate race.

This is the rub. All Jews who insist that god actually "gave them" this or that continue to cause Israel to withdraw into itself and become more isolated from the rest of the world. German Lutherans need their own land? Mormons were "given" all of Utah and can only marry other Mormons if they live in Utah? Swiss Calvanists were "given" their own space? Get a grip or you will lose everything! Also have the guts to actually write and adopt a constitution! The sooner the secular Jews of the world turn against the orthodoxy of Israel, the sooner there will be peace.

My dear Maureen, There are many kinds of Jews, I have noted, including 'gastronomic' ones. You accuse Jews of stealing food recipes ... and why limit your 'victims' to the Mid-East? The 'thefts' include bagels and bialys (pinched from Poland), lox (possibly stolen from the Swedes, who call it 'lachs'), herring (heisted from Holland), potato kugel (potatoes appropriated from the Incas), chicken noodle soup (nicked from the chickens), onions and leeks (garnered from the Egyptians!) - shall I go on? The one authentic article? Matzoh, if you'd read Exodus. Jews have lived everywhere, and have made their host nations' diets their own, with unique Jewish 'twists'. But you are the first to insist dietary items were copyrighted by Arabs and the copyright infringed upon by Jews. Sounds like the Arabs should get themselves a smart Jewish lawyer, then. Kind regards. MV

Nobody is suggesting elimination of the Jewish state. Anybody familiar with Israel knows religion in Israel is controlled by the orthodox and ultra orthodox movements. They control marriages, Shabbat rules, kashrus etc.. etc.. This actually has had a negative effect of the non orthodox Jewish population in Israel and thus most Israelis despise religion and are secular. Separating church and state in Israel actually will allow Israelis to rediscover their religion and choose the flavor suits them. Finally and unfortunately it is not the presence of Israel that stops anti-Semitism, actually Israel polices and action is the cause of the latest surge in anti-Semitism.

Israel's Jewish identity is how Israel is able to survive in a region of enemies. Losing your national pride, and purpose of being a place to safely be a Jew among Jews, justifies every bit of anti-Israel propaganda in the U.S.

Israel can be a democratic state and the homeland for the Jewish People - without being "the Jewish State". It is not the Muslim or Christian religion that we reject but the Arab culture which rejects freedom, women's rights and democracy.

It's about POWER and the control of it for money and control of OTHER JEWS' rights to practice their religion in their own traditions. The Orthodox will only lose power kicking and screaming. They do not know the meaning of the word "compromise" and they certainly have no respect for Democracy or in having a constitution.

Could the U.S. be a Christian state, homeland for the Christians, and still be a democracy? No way, bubalah! Do you want a Christian Bureau of Investigation? A Christian Army? We all sing "Onward Christian Soldiers" as our national anthem! Israel cannot be both a Jewish state and a democratic state.

nobody's talking about that. strenger is just pointing out the evident conflict in israeli society, only growing sharper w/time, but one which is NOT inherent in the idea of a "jewish state": the stranglehold & monopoly held by the rabbinate & a few small religious parties in key positions in government. you either do have a truly democratic system w/equal freedoms for all /not. there's an open discrimination in areas like marriage, burial & the status of jews acc. to halakha f.ex., which isn't necessary in order to keep the state jewish. w/reg. to "jewish" /not one has to think primarily in terms of ethnicity, although, it's true, in the jewish case the ethnic & the religious are intertwined & to some extent inseparable. but you can't have a situation where anything having to do w/religion can be imposed on anyone in any form whatsoever anymore. that belongs to the ghetto, before political emancipation of jews in 19.century europe. & i'm not talking about shabbat /the calendar.

Religion does not need to run governments or make laws for a nation. It serves those who believe and for those who do not,it offers itself only as a source of aggravation.

Carlo Strenger has done it again and written yet another brilliant article. As a native born Israeli I totally agree with everything that Strenger says. Please let us act now and secularize Israel completely before it is swept into the vortex of religious insanity that engulfs our Middle East neighbors. We MUST end religious involvement in the government. Ben Gurion was truly a fool to allow this.

- a secular state, ie one w/a secular political system as opposed to a theocratic one. it's sufficient to take a walk in the center of tel aviv /to watch israeli TV channels for a while to know that. a truly democratic system has to be secular by definition. people w/no inside knowledge of israel get this mixed up - there's no comparison of israel to theocratic islamic regimes f.ex. people also mix "secular political system" w/"secularization" of society, which is a different category altogether. what strenger is talking about, though, is the stranglehold the orthodox establishment has over israeli politics w/reg. to their monopoly in religious matters as well as due to the key tipping positions held by religious parties in nearly every coalition government. the separation of synagogue & state isn't clear /clean enough. the state should f.ex. not give any verdict of "who's a jew" in a halakhic sense (the rabbinate can do that), only whether one qualifies for citizenship. period.

Do you mean like the Middle Eastern food recipes Europeans in Israel have stolen as their 'own?' What about the Taliban in Afghanistan - they want their brand of Islamic rule in Afghanistan? How is that so different to Israeli theocracy? The only difference is, the theocratic state of Israel has more lethal weapons than the Taliban, and is supported by your hypocritical country - America!

Non-Jews and secular Jews live freely, with few restrictions. The only religious rules they are forced to adhere to is that there is no secular marriage. That's pretty much it.

Why is this state different from all other states? Because there is only one Jewish homeland - and whether one is a secular, religious, gastronomic, cultural, or any other variety of Jew, there is only one place where one does not have to explain the meaning of Yom Kippur to one's fellows; only one place where the post man, the janitor, and the farm worker are all Jews; only one place where Jews truly are safe from progroms and less-blatant forms of persecution. In other words, in the opinion of this Anglican: the Jews would be meshuggah to take the 'Jewish' out of the 'Jewish state'. What then are you left with? Bubkis! MV

Several problems exist in Mr. Strenger's propsal. First, the varieties of Judaism that exist include strong ethno-cultural ties that simply cannot be overlooked. To declare Israel a non-Jewish state, the end result of formal secularization would be tatntamont to its destruction, and the end of a Jewish presence in its ancient, historic homeland. Second, history shows that prior to the creation of Israel, Jews systematically were met with destruction and violence in Europe with the end game of changing them into something they were not (for the most part, Christians).In Arab lands, they were subject to inferior status. Third, Muslims and other non-Jews have already been given access to the justice system in the "Jewish State" with a right of appeal unheard in neighboring Arab states. Finally, it is only the presence of the State of Israel that prevents a return in other countries to more extreme forms of anti-Semitism in other countries with such historical records of atrocities.

I think a lot of people would agree that aside for some issues like civil marriage, Israel is generally a secular state. I doubt people living in Tel Aviv feel opressed.

So what you are suggesting is a non-Jewish state? You call for the eradication of Israel for there is no separating Jewish from a religion as Judaism is a religion and Israel for the Jewish people.

- is really bad. it's more like what dan brown does in his novels, w/basic blunders of mistaken assumptions, omissions /even downright false claims. a few examples: the scientific revolution, which began in the 16. & not 17. century was more rooted in & based on "religious belief" than anything else. greater historians than s. see it even as a philosophical necessity for the rise of science in the 1st place. likewise the idea of liberty in the US constitution is derived directly from the biblical idea of man. his whole contradiction of critical thought vs. revealed thruth is indeed superficial & wrong. he mixes it up w/"dogmatism", which is of course bad. there's no way at arriving at any real thought /inquiry except within a valid theory of knowing (epistemology), which in our post-modern days is as good as dead, so some of s.'s claims are typically just a romantic leap & illusion. but his practical conclusion for isr. politics is great - YES TO A SECULAR CONSTITUTION!

WE HOLD THESE TRUTHS AS SELF EVIDENT. THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUALLY So begins a very revolutionary document with addendums that created the most sucessful Democracy in the histoy of the planet. And so should Israel become a true Democracy as a beacon of hope in an area of dispair

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Your argument is well put. I agree that religion has nothing to fear from the secular state. The secular approach allows religious systems to compete in the "marketplace of ideas" along with non-religious systems of thought. And religious systems need not come up wanting, in spite of the competition. There are mystical traditions in Judaism and other religious traditions of the world that are, I believe, rooted in human experience. They simply attend to different aspects of human experience than do, for instance, scientists. A healthy secular state can provide an environment in which we can argue about ideas without (1) feeling the need to kill those who differ with us or (2) finding ourselves in danger of being killed.

The opinions expressed in this article are utterly absurd. The secularism that has emerged in Europe has weakened it to the point where Arab fundamentalists are easily, without many obstacles, assuming control of all of Europe. Without religion to band at least some people together, stigmas are created that at best allow people to hesitantingly live together, and at world create opportunity for the destruction of civilization. Israel was created as a state for the Religious and the Secular, albeit a Jewish State. The "secularizing" of this entity would detract from the mission of the country as a whole, taking away any reason for it to exist. If your extreme opinions were the norm, ISRAEL WOULD NOT EXIST!

Israel is a secular state. The rules of marriage and divorce by the orthodox are primarily so secular and religious can intermarry should the occasion arise. look at the growing crime rate and drug and tattoo rates and u will see what Israeli values are compared to Jordan or Saudis. The religous ill gain by secularztion but the seculars will lose everything of value they have by the status quo. Look at the secular birth rate and u need no further answers. Byeby!

BDS comment about potential progress with neighbouring states if Israel is not described as Jewish state is interesting. Logically there is some merit. However it would also require states such as Saudi Arabia to do likewise. Somehow I cannot see the House of Saud being willing to forego its place as the spiritual home of Muslims and thus cease to call itself "a Muslim State" (and I guess one could go even further with this argument with Iran etc).

Even it the Orthodox carry the flame, that does not give them the right to set fire to the rest of us , as and when they deem us 'unhalachic'. As to the folly of giving them so much power in Israel, that will be irreparably apparent when the state goes broke supporting those who neither work nor join the military. All the while reproducing madly. Following a code that made sense centuries ago only works if the rest of the secular world is prepared to kow-tow. Clearly, that has to end, so that the rest of us can get on with surviving in the here and now.

Yes I stand corrected on the status of the Church of England....however let us not forget the sectarian violence over many years in northern Ireland which took such a heavy toll in lives lost---all in the name of whether protestantism (ie the Unionist side) or catholicism (ie the nationalist side)should be the dominant power in Northern Ireland. Thankfully the current power sharing arrangements appear to hold and are an example of what can be achieved if both sides are committed to resolve a dispute. There are lessons here too for Israel/Palestine.

When I lived in Israel there was a secular optimism and a dedication to "universal ideals". Today,the religious jews have hijacked the Israeli government and have increasingly turned to racism and extremism. In the end, they will turn Israel into another "ghetto" that will fulfill their prophecy of persecution. It has become harder and harder for jews around the world to endorse the policies of the extreme right. The alliance with the evangelical christians will end in disaster. If you believe in a free and productive Israel that has a place in the world, than we must suppress the religious extremists that have clearly taken control of the Israeli government.

Carlo Stenger's argument is definitely worth exploring. Apart from Israeli domestic politics and civil liberties (e.g., marriage, status of non-Jewish citizens), secularisation could have a beneficial effect on Israel's relations with the Arab states. The inflammatory slogan 'a Jewish state' would be meaningless.

1.Good to hear from you Mr. Strenger. 2.You are treading the path The Messiah who will combine all divisions within religions, unites all religions, unifies science and religion, coordinates church and state, weds all nations and all peoples including Israel and Palestine. 3.But how best to describe a man who can do all the above and more in just three seconds and by simply changing one iota? The correct answers: Messiah, Son of God and King of the Jews 4.Mr. Strenger, welcome to paradise. We are almost there. 5.A Blessed Yom Kippur 5770!

"Even here in UK where the Church of England is headed by the Queen and it is the "state religion" " While I agree with your argument, I must point out that the C of E is the 'established church' only in England, not Scotland or Northern Ireland, both parts of the UK.

A fascinating article, but the progress of rational, secular thought is not a slow progression to absolute truth and enlightenment. Just as 'received truth' can lead to problems, so unchecked logic can lead to extremes such as communism and fascism. The two 'twin' ideologies lead to untold misery and death for millions in the last century. Secularization is a false goal because it ignores the reality of Israel, a small place where three major religions collide!

whenever humanity left the path of God it ended in Bloodshed, and Distruction

unfortunately though, implementing its ideals will be up to secular israelis and open-minded religious progressives... because the orthodox will never willingly relinquish its influence and control over israeli society as whole. this would be true of ANY religious institution in a similar circumstance... just as it was true in europe. and even in the u.s. today, religious fundamentalism is hard at work trying to undermine the secular nature of our democracy.

they are the essence of judaism.bless them.

Israel has forgotten the ideals of its founders and early Zionists. Those people believed in secular Israel that is a democracy, enjoys freedom of religion living peacefully with its neighbors. The religious Zionist who is controlling Israel today has complete different vision and mission. It is based on Messianic and biblical entitlements to the entire land of Israel as described in the bible without taking reality and pragmatism into consideration. The chosen people, the people of the book, have turned into the people of the nukes and the sword, neither is serving Israel’s original visions and heading it toward the edge of the cliff.

I see the genesis of common sense thinking in Israel and a step closer to the one state inevitable solution.

Israel has a (largely) fully functioning democratic system. If the voting population seeks to walk down the path of secularization or the opposite extreme, namely a Halacic state. I do not know which path Israel will take, and I do not know what is best. What I do know is the people will be the ones to decide and live with the consequences.

Far from being a ultraorthodox in any way either christian nor jewish i strongly disagree with this opinion. Judaism is different to any other religions. The Hebrews became the choosen Nation as promised to Abraham and got convenants through Moses which leaded them out of eqypt to the also promised Land Israel. All prophesies from anicient times became truth, including the arrival of the messiah, and they will become thruth as well until the end of time.The system currently in Israel is not perfect but up to now it works out fine for all people there. Further more it shows that where people leaving the "protecting" framework of religion the moral and ethic values and educations go downhill.

The secular majority in Israel has allowed an ultra-orthodox minority to take control over much of the nation. The ultra-orthodox are not to blame; they have an agenda which they are following. It is secular Israelis who, for incomprehensible reasons, have allowed this band of fanatics to dominate them. The ultra-orthodox contribute little or nothing to society, yet we yield to them in all their demands. Why, for instance, have we changed our clocks two months ahead of everyone else? So that the precious ultra-orthodox can get dressed in the light? And, yet, we continue to criticize religeous extremism in neighboring arab states. Outrageous!

Yes Israel must become a secular regime. It is very importante for the peace between israelis and arabs and between Israel and others countries. Goog luck for Carlo

america has many differing religions-jews only one. israel's religious population is about 20 percent. the usa religious population is non existant relative to numbers. in israel all levels of religion keep some symbolic religion-in usa none. need i go on-mr. strenger seems to live in his own make believe land. get the facts carl-your comparisons are out of touch

Freedom of religion and religious practice in Europe has also flourished in the states where there is a full separation between the 2---best example is that emancipation for jews in France has been in place since Napoleonic times---because of the separation between religion and the state--and long may such separation continue. Even here in UK where the Church of England is headed by the Queen and it is the "state religion" --it is the secular nature of the state leaving religion to private beliefs and practices that benefits society. The problem with clerics in political power is that they are generally not responsive nor responsible to an electorate. Israel is unique in having clerics with such overt political power but that is as much a problem derived from proportional representation in Israel as the secular political parties not being prepared to alter the status quo in a way which would lead Israel to be the secular state suggested by the author of the articile.

Read Torah: G-d gave Jews the land of Israel so they can live by His laws and they can serve Him. If G-d forbig Israel becomes secular it would be end of this state.

1) My question: Was the Islamic golden age namely the Islamic enlightenment from the 9th to the 11th centuries, based in any type of secularism, or the other way around, Islam as a total way of life dominated the life of all Muslims including its intellectuls. 2) Europe is defined nowadys by Jurgen Habermas as a post secular society. Even the Canadian multiculturalist Charles Taylor suggest that the new secular Europe should give a place to religion. This does not mean that the separation between state and religion should not be preserved, but should shift from the dominance of a secularist state to the American version of liberalism. Freedom to all religious sects. For the American constitution Secularism is one of the vast variety of religious sects that should enjoy freedom.

Oh, yes, Mr NBD, more people are not just listening with Carlo Strenger but are agreeing with every word. The day will hopefully come when the separation of state and religion will save us from ourselves, and we might even lead the Middle East in this respect!

"True faith" that motivates religious strife is by its nature an idolatrous notion -- see "The Pitfall of Truth: Holy War, its Rationale and Folly." It is in the very best interest of the religious to realize step away from it.

Wrong! Religion is the only positive glue that holds the Jewish people together. The negative one being antisemitism or anti zionism

The constitution is a prime measure to keep a minimum consensus of the people, without any declared and indisputable centerpierce or common ground, all is shifting aimlessly into one direction or the other, just like a drunk dude.

Separation of Church and State has been very beneficial to both in America. While we have constant carping from religious extremists that they are prevented from using government to inflict their beliefs upon everyone else, they are quick to understand that others are prevented from inflicting their beliefs upon them.

Hear, hear, Mr Strenger!! ... but is anyone listening?