Who is the real Israel: its citizens or its politicians?

I am Hasan. I live in Dhaka, Bangladesh. I am 21 years old. I read this newspaper daily. Its really good to know more about Israel. I am happy to see this types of posts.

let me just predict for you that when the time has come & there's no more 'stranglehold' the orthodox establishment can wield over whoever doesn't wish to be strangled by them baaretz - by all means, may orthodoxy still be & keep being well & alive & kicking forever - you & your like will be bound to have a serious depression..

Who is the real Israel? Those who rule by minority pressure. The party which manages to weild power no matter who the government is. Yes the orthodoxy!

- & who cares about what the world knows /cares? the politicians (generally speaking) are just a mirror image of whatever segment(s) of the population that happen to fill the number necessary at the ballot box at any given time. i'd think you knew this. what's your problem w/israel anyway? you represent a perfect country yourself, mark lincoln? if the politicians & commanders of your renown army, ie the US army itself, won't manage to persuade the necessary portion of the taliban these days, ie the pakistani & afghani taliban, the US army plus what's left of the coalition will have no choice but to turn into a real killing machine, of the sort that you definitely won't like. we're gonna tell you who's on a mission to exterminate whom then. are you getting the point? maybe then you'll know how to turn your attention away from this little beach of a country doing all it has to to defend itself ie to survive. maybe you'll give a 2nd thought to your own survival then.

The growing international anti-Israeli sentiments and movements are easily explained by Israel's human rights violations in its treatment of the Palestinian population during the 42 years of its harsh, humiliating occupation of Palestinian territory. We hear a constant drumbeat of "we Jews have known 2000 years of anti-semitism," "the world is turning against Israel because of anti-semitism," "oil money controls the UN," "Muslim nations control the UN," and the list of all the reasons why the world hates Jews is longer than this cite permits. But if Israel removed its settlements, moved the separation wall to Israel, ceded E. Jerusalem, and assisted the establishment of a independent sovereign Palestinian state, Israel's international enemies would go away, and Israel could become just another member of the international community in good standing. The fear that a Palestinian independent state would attack Israel is an absurdity.

You, Sir, either have no idea what you are talking about, or you are a liar. Israel claims it permits an average of 40 trucks of aid daily to enter Gaza. According to UN World Food Program, Gaza, with a population of 1.5million, requires 400 trucks of just food daily to meet basic nutritional needs. Israel forbids entry of everything from building materials, to medicine, to spare parts for cars and machines, to coffee, to shoes. UN agencies report 80% of Gazans depend on meager trickle of aid Israel permits. 450,000 are without clean water; patients are in dire need of medical care. WHO reports not enough IVs, medicines nor anesthetic. The blockade is a violation of article 33 of the 4th Geneva Convention: a war crime. A September 2009 United Nations fact-finding mission found that the blockade of Gaza amounted to "collective punishment of a civilian population," a war crime and a crime against humanity and recommended the matter be referred to the International Criminal Court.

Yes Mr Stenger, there is no 'political' solution. Of course there is no knesset or alliance that can solve it. The only way is an Israeli leader with the brutality to chop down those (domestic interests) who are blocking an agreement. One suggestion... give each Prime Minister a maximum term of ten days in which to serve as leader of an Israel that has not settled. An agreement will only take a few hours to force. The ten days provides 9 days of basking in power, meeting celebrities etc, then on the tenth day the PM either forces peace or resigns. Netanyahu's delay tactics are funny, but at a deeper level they inspire nausea.

To a large extent the current situation is brought about by the Gazan and West Bank Palastinians failure to accept three offers of statehood (the first in 1948), the redirection of raw materials and humanitarian supplies to the Hamas tunnels, armaments, and war of terror, and the focus of Palestinian leaders to reign terror on Israeli citizens in their homes and shopping malls rather than build an infrastructure for a new state.

The anti-Israel propaganda is too strong. It has spiraled out of control. This will result in lots of violence against Israel/Jews. Quite scary. Am Israel chai!

countries: Syria and the United States of America In each instance, the political state seen from the outside does not at all resemble the live of people inside the country.

So i guess america needs to return the land to the indians as well. It's called spoils of war...DEAL WITH IT.

If Israel is so generous in what it allows into Gaza, then why does 80% of the population live on less than $2/ day? Why is anaemia prevalent among 62% of children under the age of 1 and 29% of pregnant women? Why has there been barely any reconstruction in the residential areas? Why are 88% of UN schools and 82% of government schools on shift programs to accomodate students since so many buildings were destroyed by the IDF in CastLead? Why do you think there are tunnels into Gaza? ---Because there is no other way of getting food, building materials, educational materials, medicines in ! How can you deny that Gaza is under a siege/ occupation? According to Nuremberg if a foreign army can assume control over an area at any time by land, air or sea then it is an occupation. What else is that Wall that surrounds the Strip? The people in Gaza are trapped and subject to an occupying force determining almost every movement http://www.gazafreedommarch.org/downloads/PRESS%20PACK.pdf

The real Israel is the totality of all its people, the good, the bad and those all in between. The real Israel is the total land of Israel. From the north to the south and east to the west. The image of Israel to others is not important as most of the world has a gripe against the Jews. Israel must be self-sustaining and strong. Israel should not be ashamed as it has come a long way in a short time among hostile Arab neighbors, many near and far. Who is the real Israel?: All Israelis and all the Jews of the world.

Many people have written here that 'you get what you vote for' as a means to say that Israel's government accurately represents Israeli society. BS. And the reason is coalitions. The President gives the election candidate who holds the most chance of forming a stable coalition the chance to do so, so not necessarily will the largest party be in power if they can't form a stable coalition. And it also means that large parties will be in the opposition because they don't want to partner with parties they disagree with. Which of course limits their power. Israel did not vote for Bibi - Kadima actually got more votes, remember? You also need to bear in mind that many people vote for parties who they don't completely believe in so as to give the bloc as a whole more chance of succeeding - thus many people who agree with Meretz might actually vote for Labour so as to not 'waste' a vote. But we shouldn't let details confuse us - after all, it's easier just to operate on auto-hate..

by the approval in the comments. Maybe the writer is right and is it in Israel the same as in Iran. Nice civilised peace wanting people, who are scared by the rhetoric of their government. It sounds like the movement in Holland "'another jewish sound"" Try in the next election an protest vote, folks Strenghten the israeli arab parties to get a mixed government who will have to be be good for all.

he finds time to pontificate about the 'lack of good heartedness and love towards others' in Israeli society. Yes Matteo, I'm sure Israelis could learn a lot from the Pugliesi, the most civilized of all Europeans... LOL

The Real Israel is the Politicians. Because they are the ones who make the policies and enforce them.

Did you understand why Adam and Khavah needed to ware clothes ? It's a long story but I'll try to resume : The root "bgd" gives in hebrew "clothes" and "betray". When some kind of people need to hide behind special clothes, isn't it in order to hide that they betrayed God and the people? Don't they wear special clothes to make believe they are allowed to do things noone else would dare to do ? say things noone else would dare to say ? Especially in the name of God ? It's also very important to notice that the "democracy", with the elections is a chance for those especially dressed people to reject the responsability of their acts on the population that elected them. Those the people choose are surely not those God has chosen. Try to read the Bible very carefully... Especially in capitalists countrys, those who are elected are rich people who proved they can make money by any means. They are not experts in peace process. Didn't Jews refuse the best leader to peace?

to where people almost deliberately want to ignore political issues in order to demonstrate that they can live a "normal" life - based on business, home life, vacations, maybe working abroad etc. Of course, there is also the feeling that they cannot really affect change so why clutter their life with something that has become almost marginal to them. Many of these people are relatively affluent and have dual nationality so that if the zionist dream breaks down they can leave.

Here is my predictions: I watch the news everyday, my interest is in the Israeli internal politics. I predict that the settlers will rule Israel just like Hizbollah and Taliban. You don't beleive me? Better watch the news!

Does it matter anymore? Thanks to the politicians, we all look like criminals in the eyes of the world.

... and the reactionary herd follows his lead...

Israel's "party list" system is indeed problematic, and won't be resolved by rejiggering the requisite vote floors. Accountability won't come until Israel moves to a single rep per district system. That of course won't save those who think Meretz represents anyone but the liberals in N Tel Aviv. Israel is at heart a centrist to center-right country of good-hearted people who have been "mugged by reality". Their enemies and neighbors have given them little reason to trust them. As to those "questions": Tell your friends that Gaza remains formally at war with Israel, committed to its destruction, and Hamas frequently steals those supplies for their own benefit. And ask them why Jews should be denied the right to build on land they own, or why Arabs can't accept Jews as neighbors. Remind them, too, that before 1967, Israel provided Gaza with nothing, and Gaza was just fine with that. So why now is Israel responsible for its well-being? It does, after all, have a border with Egypt.

To Mr. Strenger: it amazes me to hear that the Govt. is also in the grip of paralysis in Israel, just as in the U.S. One reason for this could be the anger that I see in the responses to your article, which is very similar to the dialog going on in the U.S. Anger twists the mind into extreme thinking and should always be noted and confronted, for anger certainly will not bode well for any future we, together will have.

Our Knesset is not composed of people elected but rather by a certain number of people selected by the parties management according to unvisible criteria. Thus on elections, citizens vote for a party and not for a known personality related to a certain conscription,having an expressed point of view and an adress where to reach him. Besides, for quite a few peoples, what counts is not their own ideology and logics but ruther the position of their Rabbi, and this goes as well for certain political parties who get instructions before each vote. etc, etc. try to look at #21

there are some real enemies in israel that render it unapproacheable. i am an outsider, but that's what i see. an aggressive, unbending, undiplomatic government headed by an extreme right prime minister. a wrong ideology that israelis are superior to palestinians. a lack of good heartedness and love towards others. an extreme right press that stirs up hatred.

I moved to Israel three and a half months ago as a new immigrant. One of the things that saddens me the most is the lack of a civiclly involved society. There is no-where outside of the ballot box for citizens to express their views to government or to shape government thinking. Where are the letters pages in the newspaper that invite comment and criticism? Where are the letters to MKs? Where are the lobbies? Where are the press campaigns to change things? Israelis are socially-minded (they do care for one another) - but when it comes to politics and matters of state, they are struck dumb. It is little wonder that they have so little faith in politicians as there are few opportunities for them to infleuence their behaviour.

Lieberman, Ayalon, Misezjnikov and Bibi show the true face of Israel to the world. For that, I thank them. If all your "decent people who care about their neighbors" are embarrassed by their politicians, they must have lived with their eyes closed. It is time to wake up, the rest of the world has. Start by looking at the misery of your neighbours across the fewnce. Israel made a pact with the devil when she let those fresh young settlers crawl across the Green Line in 1967. The genie was out of the bottle and it won't go back in. Please read #7 Nadav's talkback above. Watch the video of the IDF soldier and the settler youths on the B'Tselem current home page. The arrogance and the violence is scary. This is the Israel seen by the world. This is the Israel that you have created - willingly or unconciously. You're accelerating down a slippery slope and you won't be able to stop now.

PLEASE, all jewish organisations who care for israel well being or just it's mere survival, we can't make it by ourselves our social and political structure are such that we can't do it. Help us to get rid of the strungulation imposed by extreme religieus parties, and extreme right wing parties (on or beyound the limit of facisme) who got hold of our entire system. We lose old time allies, we refuse any pace toward peace while we are sick and tired of seeing our kids getting killed in avoidable futile conflicts, we inflict injustice on our neighbours and we tolerate all sorts of terror actions commited by our "settlers" etc, We can't do it our selves and without you active help I am afraid we are doomed. SO PLEASE GO AHEAD, DO SOMETHING

Could you write more . I waited long time before next article. Thanks for your thought. it illuminate my mind

Yeah I understand that Israel is afraid f having another lebanon or iran, but then till when u're gonna live with this fear? Eventually, Palestinians are having their state, sooner or later. U cant be doing this for ever. It's time to get rid of this fear and get a bit braver to face the challenges of the future. Besides, dont just assume it's gonna be another Iran, Palestinians are tired of all this and they might wanna start thinking of building their state. Wake up people and smell the coffee. stop ur blame game and act for once in a human way..

Without people there is no state. Every measure the government takes need the support of the people implementing it. Israel is still a democracy as far as voting is concerned. Israeli and even settlers are also nice people. Their is a tiny little thing. Most Israeli are either afraid of or hate "the arabs" or just want their land. High time to make clear those "arabs" or "pals" are human beings that deserve to be treated with respect.

vote. if you bothered to vote at all. its votes not the street which determines policy in a democracy.

Dear Mr. Strenger, as Israeli, You should ask a basic question first: "Do we need a zionism?" If answer is "Yes", you have lost all hope for good future. Because this ideology it is, what is killing your state. Second question is: "Why we have and we need French, British, German, Italian and other passports, when we are Israelis and we wont not to be Britons, French and Germans?" Without an answers never you can understand, what is happening in the world around you and what we are thinking about Israel and Jews.

until all issues are put to referendums follyticians are in charge of events ! on an average basis israel is represented by the present incumbents !

Prof. Stenger, my colleague, Israel is everything you described. It is a democracy in which citizens cannot marry whom they wish without going abroad and in which a military junta really determines policy. OTOH it is a state with press freedom, freedom of organization and personal liberty. In other words, it is a complete contradiction in all directions. The rule of law is given lip service and the police break up legal demonstrations. It proves that people have the leaders that they deserve. I wish someone knew what to do about it. It might mean that after 2000 years of exile and dependence, Jews are not yet capable of self government. It may sort it self out in time, but there may not be enough time.

As a fairly new citizen of Israel,I also feel exactly the same as Mr Strenger.However ,I do bump into lots of people with extreme opposite views.Maybe I'm naive ,but I still believe that the actions of our government dont represent the views of MOST of Israel's citizens. Of course until we AND our politicians are able to ask the same question about citizens in Gaza and West Bank there will be no progress.They also ,I bet, just want a peaceful co-existence. But every wrong move by our politicians against their interests are turning them against us and creating more extremists. Do our leaders care.?

Israel claims to be a democracy,but in reality is not.One can not build a house without foundation.Until and unless Israel adopts a constitution based on individual human rights , it is doomed to fail......

What Carlo said is obvious but what can we do to change things? It looks like we can only wait for the next government and hope that meanwhile Bibi & Lieberman will not destroy everything that the pioneers have built so far.

I agree with you. The Occidental tourist walking on Rotshield street will get the impression that Israel doesn't have the leadership it desserved. But then, if you go up to Kyriat Shmona, down to Ofakim, or end up in the holy cities of Jerusalem and Hevron, you'll meet the citizens voting Lieberman, Shas or Agudat Israel. They are not "liberal" or "creative". They are supportive on a tough-on-arab policy. In the current system, the knesset does mirror the Israeli socity - i.e. a socity whose enlighted/liberal part is about to be marginalized.

what article were you reading?are you responding to carlo strenger or to the people who he wrote about???????

The Israelis select their leaders and endorse their policies. This process is further endorsed by the Jews in the USA with their financial contributions. IDF excesses, settler abuses of Palestinians, denial of human rights to Palestinians, blockades and invasions of Gaza are products of this support. Responsibility vests with all the blind or informed supporters of Israel's actions. Israel and its supporters are doing damage to the Judaic heritage and those values that the world has held in high esteem.

Just from you saying Israel does not let in food and humanitarian aide into Gaza already shows that you are poorly educated. It is a FACT that Israel DOES allow tons of humanitarian aide, including food, fuel, and medicine as well as other goods into Gaza (Egypt, to which Gaza technically belongs, refused to do this!). The lie that the Gaza strip is under seige and people there are starving is a pure LIE! The Gazans live better than most Third World countries, they even receive medical care IN ISRAEL!! Israel needs people on its behalf to educate the world and call out Arab/Islamic and Leftist lies! The author should educate himself! On another note, ALL Israelis see Samaria and Judea as part of our ancestral homeland- they only disagree to which extent this land should be given to Arabs to create (yet another) State. Israelis are afraid to create another failed state (eg Lebanon) or a theocracy (Hamas/Sudan/Iran) that will be hostile to it. Is that so hard to understand for the Left!?

...like the ordinary, Palestinian civilians, because the majority voted for Hamas? All must suffer or to be happy?

I think the proportional election system is our main problem. I would vote for any change to a more majoritarian system. I personally like the British one, it makes parlamentarians personally responsible for their actions. But I would accept any other workable version. Meanwhile there is nothing to be done. Would there be a petition to study other countries and propose a specific change, I would sign it. One doesn't need to do much for it, we can copy the British system, the French one, the New Zealand one - how smart should we be to understand it? But what specifically are you saying, Mr. Strenger? What do you mean by "we are each and everyone responsible"? Or is it just empty posturing, no specific sense behind all the grand and vague words?

so the responsibility for the 'real' Israel lies with both. You get what you vote for.

I once believed in the Israel you picture as a decent people, Mr Strenger, and have come to the opposite conclusion during the past year. I hope you are right - that the decent people in Israel see the boorishness that has put such a stain on the name of Israel recently. I hope they can stop it.

The current government is a disgrace. But, this is what most Israelis voted for. After all, Israel is a democracy. Things will change for the better when Meretz has 15 mandates, Labor and Kadima (minus their right-wings) have 20 some mandates, Hadash has 7 or so mandates, and the Arab parties are included as real players. Sounds naive? Maybe, but until something like this is reality we will be stuck with a government much like the one we now have...and become increasingly isolated.

i come back to israel as often as i can. the people are every dear to me but as stated in the article the politics are another story.i would make the suggestion that no party with less than either 5 or 10 percent of the national vote be represented in the knesset.it might help to start to improve the situation both nationally and internationally