Dear Haredim, while you were sleeping, secular Jewish culture was thriving

We can see what injecting religion into politics does by looking at the Muslim world. We can also see what denying religion in the Israeli world does, too. You have post-Zionists denying the Jewish character of Israel. Israel's only purpose is to provide a home for Jews to express their Judaism without compromise. No other country in the world allows this expression. Not the US, not Canada, and certainly not Europe or Latin America.

The author appears to believe that all Jewish cultures are European. We see references that are laudatory to some degree referencing Lithuanian, Hassidic and German Jewish cultures. Apparently this author dismisses Sefardi, Mizrahi, Ethiopian, Indian and other Jewish cultures without a word or thought. This is just as offensive as the parochialism of the religious right and secular left.

There was a "Western Yiddish" spoken and used in France and Italy and Northern Europe. This language died after the French Revolution. This language is completely dead, like most of the other language which were spoken in France at one far off time.

My first point is that the only thing that potentially unifies ALL Jews is religion. Culturally, intellectually, racially etc there is little else that makes a Yemeni Jew similar to a German Jew. Religion is the only universal element in Jewish identity. Otherwise, one can talk about Ashkenazim, or Bokharan Jews, or whatever -- but one can't talk about a single Jewish people. My second point is that it is this religion alone that gives any validity to the Jewish claim to Israel. Else why should they have it? Do I have title to the Eastern Ukraine on the grounds that many of my ancestors appear to have been somewhere thereabouts two thousand years ago? No. Ultimately, without the religion, there is no universal Jewish identity, and without the religion, that identity does not imply any claim to Israel. This is the weakness in Strenger's attempt to exclude religion from Jewish identity.

If I recall reading one of the Wissenschaft des Judentums boys left Judaism to invent German nationalism. We know all about that idea, don't we? Herzl's grandson converted to Christianity and committed suicide. One of Chaim Weizman's sons married a non-Jewish woman and went to live in England. Many Israelis who leave the country with secular educations often end up with non-Jewish spouses and . . . are lost to the Jewish people. We always had a "secular culture", before the Wissenschaft des Judentums and the Haskalah came along that lived comfortably with what you call "Rabbinic" culture. If you are willing to learn, you discover how "secular" some of the Talmudic scholars were and how "religious" our otherwise Enlightened Jews were. However, it seems that you, like Bala'am" have a "blind spot" and look at the Jewish people with your one secular eye.

"...Yiddish culture, which predominated in world Jewry..." 1) Yiddish is mainly corrupted German with an admixture of corrupted Slavic and Hebrew. The true Jewish language is pure Hebrew and its most sublime works are written in it. 2) Yiddish did not "predominate" in "world" Jewry but was confined exclusively to eastern Europe. David

There always was a "secular Jewish culture" even before the Wissenschaft des Judentum and the Maskilim decided to trash the Oral Law. Your beloved Kafka and Buber drew upon Rabbi Nacham of Bratzlav who was a Hasidic master. Egads, the "Old Man" aka Ben-Gurion drew his love of the Land of Israel from his deep connection with his religious grandfather. Then too, we wouldn't have been mixed up in the territory where we now reside without the objections of the Ostjuden Zionists who refused to take Uganda for an answer in 1903. Secular Jewish culture exists, however without the solid ground of a strong national traditional basis it floats away, say, like the Kibbutz movement, or . . . any other of the experiments that chose to ignore their Jewish roots.

Hello, Disgusted you read too many Ashkenzi newspapers. After the courts was forced to throw the State's Witness's testimony out, it turned out that he was "caught" embezzling all of $US 50,000. It was said that he kept the money to cover the cases of people whose incomes were too high, that is anything more that what the entitlement rules allowed, in some case three shekels over the limit. FYI the President of Israel was doin' some private consulting while he was a cabinet minister. The statute of limitations saved him from being brought to justice. That was not the "first" Ashkenazi who was spared, a former finance minister whose business affairs were not all in order was caught, as well. If you are Buzaglo, I fear . . . if your name sounds like a Vuzvuz the courts stay away from you.

Remember Roman era...we lost Jerusalem (70 BC) Religious people accuse secular Jewish to be Helenistic...2000 years of stupity...To be continued.

Colin Wright... Who are you to define... what make us Jewish. What do you know of Jewish literature, music... the contribution to science and the arts. Jewish cuisine, our culture and customs have survived in northern Africa, Asia and all corners of the European continent for generations... no millennia. Our ancestral tree has roots in places you couldn't imagine. You are just some lightweight, who comes to a Israeli national newspaper with glib or disdain. Where do you come off... defining our identity. No one... and certainly not some bozo like you, will we grant that privilege. Our Jewishness... that topic is not yours to define. That is for us to promote or delineate internally. You should count yourself lucky someone here reads your posts... let alone responds.

For Deri et all. the thing that counts is first of all as in Pirkey Avot:" he who stops his studies and says: how nice is this tree how nice is this field, loses his soul"; so no wonder he never heard about Yehuda Halevy and his contemporaries nor about Y. L. Peretz et or Shalom Aleichem and theirs. For him every thing beyond the yeshiva does not count, it should be destroyed as it is a sign of heretic creation. would it have been for people of this conviction we would have all gone like the followers of the Rabi Teitelboim who were left behind when the Rabi escaped to Palestine back in the forties to save his body if not his soul.

Brian, Yep, no culture there. None at all, those secularist haven't produced a thing of value. Peace. Stephen

Brian, ...Mendelsohn, Gershwin, Schoenberg, Copland...

Since a jew can be atheist, Religion cannot be a definition of jewishness. A great part of the french are catholics but catholicism is not synonymous with french. Jews are a people, an ethnic group. Sociological studies demonstrate they had all the caracteristics of a people except having a country of theit own, fact wich made them weak and prone to persecution. This was the basis for zionism. You conveniently forget the religious establishment was against zionism ( we were supposed to wait for the messiah)and jumped on the wagon when they found it convenient..

since you are the light unto the world, please illuminate us.

Am I mistaken? are we talking about the same Aryeh Deri that embezzled money and ruled Kiryat Malachi like his kingdom? Why is he allowed to be involved in any political life? He is a convicted criminal. Why would anyone care what he has to say? Ex convict back in political business?

www.shemspeed.com www.jdubrecords.org www.kravmaga.com www.olehrecords.com www.jewishmayhem.com www.taglit.com Our culture is what we are doing right now. Our 1948, 1967, and 1973 forefathers did not give their lives so that religious extremist can have control over our people.

Sorry but I am a revisionist zionist. Rabbinical Judaism and the Rabbis who taught it are resposnible for leading the Jewish people into the concentration camps, pogroms, and ghettos. Take your religious extremitism to the grave with you.

**the Chazon Ish said that your cart is empty, so it is!** This statement really embodies the haredi way of thinking. One of their leaders says something, and that makes it true. Whereas secular Jewish culture values questioning and persuasive argument, haredi culture values cutesy metaphors and superstitions.

Sharp words but so true.

why are the haredim in the USA different then here in israel.THEY WORK.in NEW YORK they control the electronics,diamonds,jewerly,etc.they study on the buses on the way to work.

the leaders of the haredim keep their subjects in a jail. they are afraid that if they let a little light in they would loss the jobs.

If we look at any religion, they all have several things in common. One person or a small group of non-elected people are in control of as vast number of people. These people follow the hierarchy like sheep. This is one of the main things that Deri and his like can't stand. Freedom of thought, and action. Another trait the 3 Middle Eastern religions share are they regard women as less than men. The third one is complete rejection of science, when it disputes the creation story, as laid out in these religions. Deri is an intelligent man. So it's even more bewildering that he subscribes to these 3 absolutes. On the other hand it proves how powerful, and dangerous people like him are. It all boils done to democracy. Something the Heridim won't except, and the secular Jews embrace, because it's freedom, and we all want to be free.

Dismay, and disgust, over the failure of Their project here on Earth, They have abandoned us to the vice of what We call "Religion". Their "design" has been twisted and undermined with its institutionalization by humans who have infused it with selfrighteousness, egocentricity, greed, and lust for the wealth and power that its institution wields. Instead of love, there is hate; Instead of harmony, turmoil; Instead of unity, conflict; And instead of peace, there is war! "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..." Alas, once given the Gift, 'Man' quickly forgot that the 'Gift' was given equally to All of mankind, and that he is Not a god, nor does he own any rights to God; and that he is Not superior to other men, nor is he Any more worthy or pleasing in the eyes of the Gods who 'Gifted' ALL of 'Man'. The Gods failed to consider the inevitability of the 'Gift' they would bestow upon 'Man' becoming cursed by human frailty. They have since retired to another place, to shed the disgrace of 'Man'.

1

Deri is playing to his crowd. I don't think secular Jews would vote for Shas regardles of what Deri said, so why expect him to do anything but literally repeat the party line.

so many ashkenazi and mizrahi haredim are genuinely great decent charming good people deri and the ovadia leadership are the failures haredi and secular unity can dislodge the money grabbing leaders the rest may be easier the enlightenment can penetrate haredi brains we all need reason and light

There is an old fashioned word which describes Deri, Mountebank. He climbs upon the back of secular Jews and claims all its achievements for himself. The bridge built by the Maskelim Jews in the 19th century opened an interface for Jews to meet the rest of the world and from that sprung the most wonderful achievements in the arts and sciences so admired by the whole world Who would have bothered to defend an isolated an unknown people hiiden in shetls, dressed in strange garb. Would the world have worried about the fate of jews if not an Einstein ,Freud or Marx had not presented themselves? It was the very act of breaking away from the confinement of religion that has saved us as a people. There is absolutely no need to return to the shetl

I too was disappointed. Deri is support to represent those who are more open to connecting with the secular world. It's clear we let ourselves be misled. Reality TV is little more than a phase that is less than 10 years old and while it has taken on massive proportions, it is clearly on it's way out. Even so, one wonders how blind one has to be to not see everything else that was achieved and revert to such simple stereotypes. Many of us seculars also find reality TV boring and uninteresting, yet it's clearly much more to do with peoples identity and social understanding in todays global world rather than a lack of culture that leads to this. As the world intercommunicates and grows more sophisticated so does the nonsense that initially takes over start to fade to the background. We must fight to maintain our way of life until those disconnected (from the 16th century) catch up with the new era.

... that secularity is a state-of-loss, not advancement... they feel vastly superior to secular Jews, nearer to G*d's fountainhead... humility or respect-for-the-other are worthless values... it is we, the secularists, who must capitulate... however, to fund them is a mitzva...

1

the Chazon Ish said that your cart is empty, so it is! you don't like that? very sad. sometimes the truth hurts - especially when you're a secular israeli without any culture whatsoever! All you have is the country and you're trying to give that away as well! worthless = empty cart!

In the diaspora, secular jewish culture only thrives in 1st generation non-orthodox, 2 generations the most. After that, they get totally assimilated into mainstream gentile culture and in most cases, marry out and cease to be Jewish at all.

The haredim don't look back far enough in Jewish history. In Temple times there were many strands of Judaism (Pharisees, Saduccees, Esssenes, etc.) and all were accepted. Their concept of Judaism only represents a narrow slice of how Jews were in history.

I agree that secular Jews have produced tremendous accomplishments in the last 200 years but that does not equate to "Culture" (the sum total of ways of living built up by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to another.). I note that Carlo does not give any examples of secular Culture, aside from generic statements of some nebulous "Israeli cultural scene" (by definition in existence from no earlier than 1940s). I - for one - would be interested to know what exactly is UNIQUELY secular Jewish culture beyond Rejectionism (of past traditions and observance) and Assimilation (assumption of other's culture as your own).

it is almost impossible to continue all traditions and beliefs of thousands of years with education. Education teaches us to question everything and progress. In order to live like these "religous" you have to put blinders on and remain totally ignorant to all new information.

If Jewish identity isn't religious, then what is its nature, and how does it justify a claim to Israel? The identity isn't racial: anyone can look at a German Jew and a Yemeni Jew and see that's nonsense. It certainly isn't cultural: not unless you're going to subscribe to some notion of Ashkenazi supremacy that is just as arrogant in its way as what Strenger objects to. So then, what? What is left that binds ALL Jews together if religion is omitted from the equation? I think that Strenger may not wish to practice the religion -- but he has to accept it, if he wants to be a Jew and feel that he has a right to live in Israel. Else there is nothing. Strenger is merely a Western intellectual whose parents weren't Christians. What else? Rely on the continuing vitality of anti-Semitism? Religion is the only inarguable, positive claim to communal identity that all Jews share -- even if they don't go to synagogue.

You are right of course except for one point. You accept Dedi's view as sincere. Deri is too intelligent to ignore all the facts you quote. He is as you say an excellent politician and addresses himself to the haredi voters. His purpose is to ingraciate himself with them even with demagogic statements. In this he, for our deep sorrow, is not an exception.

Personally, I think that these orthos are PITA's. On the other hand, maybe it's good, for the purpose of preserving some aspect of the heritage, that a small minority clings to the idea that there is an invisible man in the sky who knows all and controls all. The Christians have the Amish. the Jews have the orthos.

This is the best rebuttal I have read against the intolerance of religious Jews, and particular political ideologues like Aryeh Deri. The religious Right in Israel is doing more to damage Israel's tarnished image abroad, because it is the extremism of the religious right that inflames and polarizes society as well as Israel's relations with many countries in the world. People who refuse to recognize today's reality are going to end up repeating the mistakes of the past. 40% of Israeli society is secular. That number cannot be ignored or castigated in negative light as Deri does without the possibility of retaliation.

karl kraus, arthur schnitzler, franz kafka, stefan zweig, albert einstein, billy wilder, baruch spinoza, steven weinberg, lawrence kraus, bernard henri-levi, sigmund freud, karl marx, joseph stiglitz, carlo levi, primo levi, simon schama. without thinking hard, names of those who have done more for jeiwsh culture than all haredim since the twin emancipation from the shtetl/ghetto & cheder/yeshiva

The author, stunningly, forgets secular Yiddish culture, which predominated in world Jewry before the Holocaust killed most Yiddish speakers and the establishment of Israel as a Hebrew speaking State, combined with assimilation elsewhere, irreversibly weakened this vital branch of Jewish culture--Yiddish is 1,000 years old. To date the total quantum of published material published in Yiddish dwarfs that in modern Hebrew. Before the Holocaust, Yiddish was the language of 11 million of the world's 16 million Jews, and produced an extraordinary literature, press, theater, school systems, political movements, scholarly institutes, and even (in the USSR), was a language of government in the Bellorussian S.S.R., Birobidzhan, and the Jewish collective farming settlements in Ukraine and the Crimea, which at the time had significantly more Jews farming the land than existed in Eretz Yisrael.

Deri may find this offensive, but I think it is basically true--"...that all religious Judaism has brought about in the last two centuries is a backward way of life that hasn't contributed anything to the world at large, or that the yeshiva world has produced nothing but parasites living on others' hard work."