Ahmadinejad, Netanyahu and the Holocaust: The ethics of memory

I cant understand any of this why is any one Evan paying attention to a bug Ahmadinejad joust pop the sun of a bitch

First of all Ahamadinijad did NOT say anyone should be "wiped off the map." He said that the "Zionist entity will be wiped out by history, just as the USSR changed and is no more. It really is high time that the Jewish press tried to be more honest. Secondly, you all need to read the book by the great Isreal Finkelstein "The Bible Unearthed." That might help you to be more honest too. There was no Persian king called Ahaseurus, ever, the whole story of the "Exile" is fiction, as is the"Exodus". There was no Moses, unless it was Akhennaton, there was no Solomon, definitely, and the story of David seems to be taken fro the story Syrian prince, perhaps. The Ten Comandments are all taken from the 42 Commandments of Ma'at - look it up - and the psalms are almost all word for word copied from ancient Egyptian hymns. The only temple to have ixisted in Jerusalem is a description, just a description, of an EGYPTIAN temple. There is more.

I,believe that the atrocities of the holocust,is one the worst things the human race can do to others,regardles of race or creed,how can man fall so low,it is horrible,let us not stay silent,especially with ignorant people,who hate,and can do worst things that an animal,will not do to it'kind,let us pray,there are still people full of hate,and death

An article in the Telegraph UK daily last week or so may have a clue why the head of Iranian state has a "thing" about Jews and Shoah. Article states that Mr. A actually was born into a family with a strongly Jewish surname (the Iranian equivalent of "Greenberg"). But the family changed this into a very Muslim moniker. According to some theories about the present chronic Jew-baiting by Mr. A, this may be a kind of posturing or compensation, to help sheild him from this potentially damaging skeleton in his family tree.

One of the most amazing elements of this article I is blended of fact with fiction. News in general is reporting of events as it is witnessed. Blending is when facts are stated and opinion is injected. Reading the article it was amazing to see young Iranian solders be referred to as children and somehow defending the homeland to be a function of age determined by the enemy. The author states that sending solders to defend their land in a war that was started by Iraq, and defending your home as useless death. If this was true then Israel should have never invaded Lebanon as their Army was no on the Israeli soil. Every one knows that Jews were killed, horrified and abused by the Germans during WWII, more the reason not to have them in charge of the Arabs on their own land. As we say in America those who are abused grow up to abuse others and the cycle of abuse goes on until those with courage step in and break the cycle. Are there none among the Israelis with courage to end this cycle

"Never again". How many people know what this stands for? Or better yet, how many people now living in Israel ever experienced what this pharase stands for. Where would Jews go to, if the world exercises what the Nazis did during the 2nd world war? Is it really necessary to describe something that could very well happen? Were Jews welcomed anywhere, while hundreds of thousands were being murdered and the world ignored what was happening. Can history repeat itself?

Just because you demonize the Iranians, and they surely deserve it, do not think for a moment that Israel's actions in Jerusalem and Palestine will go un noticed. This is not your land and you will not hold on to it forever. You may have all the watches, but they have all the time, as it is said in Afganistan

"Israel was formed because of one fact. Countries closed their doors to Jews running from the Germans." - Tobia Israel was formed because many people moved to Palestine and started to work building a nation. Had they not prepared the soil for Israel over many decades before WW II, the Holocaust would have not created Israel. Your view denies history and denies reality.

The Jewish Holocaust of WW II was real, as were many others of varying degrees over hundreds of years. The point that some responders herein make is that they have to stop now. Whatever we can, as a people in the world can do to bring peace, do it now, There is no way that Hamas, Iran, etc etc will remove Israel. Conversely, if any of the estimates of our own stockpile of nuclear weapons is correct, we are sitting on a nuclear powderkeg with potentially enough power to blow us all of the Earth's axis. Is this what we want? Wrap it all up and make peace now. The risks are not worth losing everything. This applies to both sides.

# 53 hollingsworth, People like you are cowards. Forever hiding. Tell us what country you hail from & what paper in your country can one smear you & your ilk ! ? Let us know the next time you post here. Say 'thank you' for allowing a two-penny -good 4-nothing 2 come here.

I think Iranians suffered a lot in history wars and under the British who exploited them. BP took 90% of the profits under the Shah and many people lived in dirt and starvation in Iran. It was much like India I guess. They had many grievances against the British, BP oil and the Shah. I think many more are educated today than before. Why do the mullahs need atomic bombs. Islamic-Marxists work for the poor people, of which Ahmadinejad is one. Socialism was certainly needed. I think the A.B. are tools of terror, but will they really deter war, I am sorry to say, because although Israel has them, they do not deter wars. Wars of terrorism for instance can go on, etc. for ever against countries with A.B.'s. Civil war in Iran cannot be deterred by A.B.'s.

I responded to a post on an Armenian website when someone cited a neo-nazi who blames zionism and Jews for the Armenian genocide. I read this neo-nazi's story and it is fiction, not fact; and I ponder what is the purpose of this fiction? to start a war with Israel, to keep reconciliation from happening; and lastly since Turkey is forming a historical commission to study the genocide, can they keep to the facts and leave out the fictions such as this, which I said is likely to have been created by ultra-nationalists to blame the Jews for Turkish misdeeds and escape responsibility. Also victimology seeks people to feel sorry for the victim; as the person wants sympathy. Jews have produced many movies on the Holocaust, but Turkey has interfered with making movies about Armenian genocide. It is still telling lies and fictions about its history; no freedom of speech, lack of information for people to find the facts.Yes, the holocaust is not different from the Armenian genocide.

... this guy/gal simply has a macabre sense-of-humor... let him/her be... does anyone really take him/her seriously... ?!

extermonation and its implications for the future of the world.Unfortunately you dont.

feel free to complain to him or is your real issue an Israeli right of reply?

You point to "lawful self defense". Tell me, are the Palestinians allowed the same right? International Law allows for the "occupied" to use whatever means available to drive out the occupiers. Israel is renowned for "shooting the messenger". Maybe you could find the Youtube item where Mark Regev CONFIRMS the FACT that Hamas did NOT fire any rockets during the cease-fire and draw the conclusion that Israel did break said cease-fire, which resulted in 1400 dead Palestinians. I will not expand on, FANATIC AND COMPLETELY UNSCRUPULOUS, I'm sure you can work that out for yourself.

... with his severity and his justice and his Jewish heart, Goldstein is doing a supremely important service for Israel and all Jews... Shabbat shalom. E

Thank you so much, Esther. I read Goldstone's report. It took me a long time (over days) to do so. I was so infuriated. I couldn't disagree more. He is simply another Noam Chomsky of lesser intellectual acuteness, an opportunist who has simply sould his soul to the current antisemitically correct bon ton, and has robbed Israel of her legitimate right to a lawful self defense IN THE ERA OF SUICIDAL, FANATIC AND COMPLETELY UNSCRUPULOUS ISLAMIST TERRORISM.

uses the Holocaust to deflect the attention from what he is preparing in Iran, to try to delegitimize Israel. Thanks to his crazy assertions, Jews have been forced to go back and revisit this dark chapter of their history that most of us wanted to forget. For several decades, it was hardly mentioned in meetings among us. This Kippour I went to a temple where people recited a Kaddish for all the jews dead in the concentration camps, by naming each one of these camps, one after another. It was chilling to see those names in a prayer book.

I've been deleted by the moderator. Like, so what? Probably thousands of eyes read my words before they were removed. Mission accomplished. Why don't you simply remove the post? Why is it necessary to put "Deleted by Moderator?" You certainly don't mean to embarrass the poster, do you. I wear "deleted by moderator" as a badge of honor.

Strenger's goal is to cast PM Netanyahu as an opportunist and warmonger,featurres that characterize a right wing.It is purely partisan.Bibi did not use the Holocaust to justify Israel's exisetence or right of self defense.He pointed out the Iranian regime is antisemitic to the core based on religious tenets.Ahmanijehad is not crazy,he is an ideologue. Iran is a threat to Israel,maybe Strenger refuses to accept it.Bibi compared Israel in cast lead comparing to Germans bombing of London: it is called reciprocity.And,unilateral withdrawal has not brought peace,security or recognition by the left wing friends of Mr. Strenger.

It has nothing to do with the rest of the world. Netanyahu should stick to the situation today and teh problems that can and should be solved today. Begging for sympathy is not an argument or justification for ones actions today.

Though one would think on purpose. To say this is "trivial and unimportant" means one doesn't understand the power of words - especially in this region. Rachel, just can't comprehend.

I see all of these posts asking about the relevance of others dying in WWII, this is what I have to say. Here in the USA we have WWII memorials everywhere, most cities have a stone or wall or something. It is not forgotten or under appreciated. its the ethnic cleansing, the lack of self defense taken by the Jews of Europe, a very large % of the Jewish population dead. Yes it is being over used to try and gain sympathy. I don't understand why Israel has to take care of Gaza when the rest of the Arab world wont either. 2.5-3 million Jews were kicked out of Arab countries and absorbed into Israel. But the rest of the Arab world can't absorb half of that? why are the PA refugees in other Arab countries not able to be citizens of that country? Furthermore if the PA want their own country fine, but don't expect Israel to support you financially, medically, or electricity without paying for it. Israel has the right to close its boarders if it wants. they need to be self sufficient

For those who took the time to watch Ahmadinejads's interview on US TV (Coudric, King) he said that the holocaust is 62 millions killed, not the 6 millions Jews ( including French Freedom fighters (at the time called "terrorists" sounds familiar ? homosexuels, gypsies etc). What is sickening is the usage of horror to justify more horror.

... exactly whom they included... ... not all were deliberate victims of meticulously planned holocaust... the number also includes soldiers and civilians of several nations who died in battle or from deprivation... ... we unthinkingly make a fetish of 67 million, and even sacrifice some important truths on its account...

Understandably of great historic import but the two phenomena that dominate contemporary Jewish life are: the Holocaust and the State of Israel. And there is, of course, a direct link between the two. Israel uses the Holocaust as a tool for promoting and justifying its own propaganda, as we saw most recently with netanyahu at the UN and zionist nationalism has become a dogma that is to be questioned only at great peril. Odd, the founders of zionism saw it as a liberating movement, one which would bring the Jew back on the stage of history and allow the universalis aspects of Judaism to flourish in a way it could not in a diaspora existence. The opposite has happened and we have become increasingly tribal, particularistic with a greater animus toward the rest of the world.

Shalom to all! Just a few words to those who deny the assault on mankind; intentional and deliberate and planned murder of human beings. Death as a result of War and Conflicts is one subject and planned extermination of mankind is another. There is a very distinct difference. Perhaps seven times the number of planned murder may have died as a result of World War Two. But the systematic murder of six millions; not counting the hundreds of thousands on Russian Soil as the Nazi war machine swept forward, the hundreds of thousands in Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary and in present day Ukraine and Belarus is a point reflecting the abyyssal evil mankind can perpetrate against mankind. Those denying this assault against mankind and civilization are asked one simple question: Can you please tell me what were such places erected for; places like: Auschwitz,Buchenwald, Bergen Belsen, Sobibor, Dachau, Flossenburg, Ravensbruck and at least two dozen more places. What were they? Sincerely, Mehr

After 7000+ rockets onto Israeli citizens, how would Carlo Strenger have responded? Asked them politely to cease?- pass a resolution to the UN? Perhaps reply by sending them 7000+ rockets in return? Any other brilliant ideas? ANY ideas at all? The Gazans could have built a beautiful place to live, instead chose basically, war.Where were you BEFORE the neccesity?

I fully disagree with Stenger's assessment that Ahmadinajad is ignorant of the particulars of the Holocaust and therefore denies its historicity. He knows full well that it had occured and uses denial to get back at the Israelis for their denial of the Nakba and their complicity in perpetrating it. It is petty, and callous because two wrongs do not make it right. Equally callous is Natanyahu's exploitation of the Holocaust in support of his rejectionist attitude towards the Palestinians. Norman Fikelstein castigated the 'Holocaust industry' in a scathing and well documented book. It is this industry, in the service of Israel's deplorable policies and behaviour towards vanquished people that supplies the excuse for the mindless, malicious and unsustainable denial of the Holocaust.

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You are over this thing, because you deny that it was not a "killing". It was an industry, with budget, transport, workers, information resources, and with all governments in Europe collaborating. Not a killing, mister. Not a killing. An industry.

... except for the 'corrosive acidity' that you impose upon Goldstone... ... he is a man of law with a warm and sincere Jewish heart, no less than yours... ... he found himself in an excruciating position when he had to apply universally accepted laws to the devastation that confronted him in Gaza...

Rod, I do not understand the relevance to the issue in hand about Jewish financiers and German reparations during WWI... As for the description of horrendous suffering in Stalingrad, also deprived children in Iraq, I identify with what you say, but see no obsious connection to the Holocaust of the Jews during WWII.

... the response for Marilyn was in no way intended to belittle all those who perished in addition to the Jews... on the contrary, I felt that she was merely USING the suffering of others in order to mitigate the horror meted out to the Jews... that was the source of my protest... I berate her for lumping it all together indiscriminately...

as i said in another post (if haaretz posted it), 6 million jews and 67 million non-jews died, are you saying that the 67 million that died are irrelevant?, because to me the rest of the world suffered much more than jews combined 10 time more.

i am so over this holocaust thing, not denying it, but the way it is used, and thats all we hear, 6 million jews died, what about the other 67 million people that died, are they less important than the jews that did?.

for the crimes committed by the west, but for their own crimes.mostly committed before the declaration of the Jewish state in 1948. by killing and robbing pilgrims on their way to Jerusalem and by pogroms against The Jews like Zafed in 1934 The Pals did not gain sympathy in the world and so they lost their homes and land because they were afraid of the victorious Israelis in 1948 and ran away, serves them right. The Pals continue to attack Israel and They loose more everyday. If the Israelis are such demons, then stop the murder and the rockets.

Memory is liquid, we as a people, have made it as solid as possible. Because we mourn our loved ones who were murdered in the Holocaust. Because we remember and uphold life. Antisemitism is sewage, toxic liquid. It compulsively seeks to erode, to dilute, to dissolve in its swamp of hatred, everything that is decent and holy. Cynicism is liquid too, as is relativization, hipetrophia and hipotrophia of history. Goldstone is acid bias, trying to bind Israel's arms so that it cannot defend itself against the current Islamist and most unscrupulous, devilish terrorism. Using the Holocaust is evil. And were Netanyahu to mention it, he is already in quicksand. were he to avoid mentioning it, he is in quicksand too. The ethics of memory is the respect for facts. That's why the alusion to the tattooed numbers in the survivors' arms. The attempt of us Jews not to be swamped, eroded, burnt with acid or thrown into the sea. We arrived by sea to HAARETZ: THE LAND.

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The Holocaust and Gaza's dead shouldn't be used as political tools. My first concern is US atrocities (A-bombs dropped on Japan after they were no longer a threat for the sole purpose of striking fear in Russia) and only in Israel because we are complicit and maybe the driving force behind their BS.

It's just that the memory is selective. He remembers well the meddling of the US and UK in Iran. He remembers Israel's ties to the Shah's secret police. He remembers the atrocities committed by the Shah. Shia Islam is built around the grievance of of the murder of Ali in 661AD. But he forgets the vast atrocities committed by the Islamic regime, the mass hangings, the torture. Similarly, Israelis remember the slaughter in Hebron in 1929, but not so much the one in 1994. Every terror bombing is memorialized, but not so much Qibya and Deir Yassin. Americans prefer to think about Pearl Harbor over Hiroshima. Japanese would rather recall Hiroshima over Nanking. 9/11 vs Faluja, Sderot vs Gaza, the list goes on and on. But why deny the Holocaust? Because everyone needs to be the victim. And another person's victimhood is just an inconvenient fact that gets in the way of one's own, and must be denied. Hence Netanyahu and Ahmadinejad.

excuse me for asking, but what is it about the holocaust that makes some people think it justifies everything? yes, millions of jews were sought, killed during ww2. there is no doubt about that. but, for example, how many other people were killed during the same period? how many black africans were killed before, during and after colonialism, and how many more are dying now, partly because of their countries' corrupt, ruthless leaders, partly because of messed up foreign policies by western countries? i think israelis and their supporters had better wake up and realise that most people can't see the difference between inflicting a gross wrong because one was inflicted on you, and just plain doing wrong. wrong is wrong, even if the one who perpetrates it has suffered before. supposedly moral people should not act in reprehensible ways, then complain when it is pointed out that their suffering in no way justifies their inflicting worse levels of suffering on another people.

"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." - 1st Samuel 15:3 Genocide is an old evil deep in the darkest corners of humanity. Any 'tribe' may do it and the only way to prevent it is by ensuring everyone knows what an evil it is.

"In making use of the Holocaust to defend indefensible policies, Netanyahu harms the very ethics of memory that Ahmadinejad is incapable of endorsing." - Carlo Strenger Mr. Netanyahu is just making a cheap shot appeal to the prejudices, fears and hatreds of his feeble minded followers. Netanyahu uses the Holocaust just as basely and despicably as Ahmadinejad, and for exactly the same purpose. Personal political gain.

Israel was formed because of one fact. Countries closed their doors to Jews running from the Germans. THose that lived and released from camps killed when they went back to claim their property. Unless you had death certificate you could not claim for insurance. What was the world going to do with these Jews. We know the answer

"Because an ignoramus he is: Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial is not a cynical ploy. He believes what he says. . . " - Carlo Strenger While he was in NY, he gave a long and unscripted interview with NPR. In that interview he admitted that he knew the Holocaust had happened. Ahmadinejad is a man who cynically manipulates feeble minded supporters by feeding their prejudices, fears, and hatreds. I can think of many other such politicians in many nations.

The author seems unaware that for 3500 years the Jewish people have been under constant threat of annihilation. That open desire has been expressed without shame and without reprieve throughout recorded history. The actual attempts at this goal have been numerous, the Holocaust being the most successful and recent. The desire to continue the extermination of Jews is still expressed openly world-wide today. Erasing the memory of the Holocaust is one of the crucial steps along the path to a renewed campaign of genocide against the Jews.

Carlo, First, the Iranian leadership has access to Western culture (and unfortunately to Western weapons). They have seen the piles of eyeglasses and the rows of ovens. You'll never convince anyone otherwise, except a nutcake. Indiscriminate rocketfire by Gazans at Israeli civilians sure sounds like a genocidal leaning act. I dare you Mr Strenger to disprove that especially will all you high talk of ethics. The Holocaust comparison that the PM uses is apt in every way. If anything, the Gaza Op was too light in that the rockets still fly.

The Holocaust is a valid moral argument against ethnic cleansing and the usurption of human rights. It is an example of a democratically elected government using frequent, consistent lies to dupe a people into fearing for their security. The use of scapegoats (Jews, Poles, Communists, Gays, Gypsies) made it convenient for the government to remain in power. The lesson needs to be constantly reiterated. Ethnic cleansing continues under the most "honorable and righteous" rationalizations. This is often done while invoking God-given rights and at a devasting cost to peoples that possess something desired by the presiding government.

"Israel has killed far more civilians than any other nation." Sri Lanka, Yemen, the US, Russia, Chad and Somalia? Any of these ringing a bell?

Netanyahu & the Holocaust. His speech at the U.N. was flat. He should have left the mention of the Holocaust out completely. If anyone except a rabid Neo-Nazi or their erstwhile followers can compare Israel's defense of her Land to any one of the countries involved in wars,fighting or confrontations in the past,say,50 years,then it must be said clearly & with a clear voice,that they are either born liars or liars with an agenda. Paid or otherwise. Lets see: Cambodia slaughtered over 2 & 1/2 million civilians. Rowanda:massacred mainly with their matchetes,arson & rape over 1 & a half million civilians. Arab against Arab: Yemmen,Sudan/Darfur,Iraq.Shea vs Sunni,etc. The Nato forces incl.Americans,English,& Australians, (just to mention a few) The Iraqis say that over 600,000 civilians were lilled. And we are not talking about the on-going Afghan war ! Foolish people,compare that with the murderous Aarb countrie.In retaliation a few thousand Arab Terrorists were killed!

Not only was the killing system for the Jews more manic and systematic and effective and lucrative, but the sheer numbers are boggling beyond comprehension... In no way does one seek to minimalize or trivialize the genocide of the gypsies or the homosexuals... but the matter-of-fact, inconsequential, casual way that you compare and dispose of the victims, is highly offensive to all...

or maybe it's that they refuse to relinquish the ploy; no matter HOW much it's exposed for what it IS!

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Zionism came as a response to antisemitism, same as a the Holocaust & many many other pogroms, it happened because of Zionism. So the CORE argument of this article is wrong because without antisemitism Zionism, Israel, and the many Holocausts against European Jews would not have come to reality. Sadly, now Palestinians pay for the crimes committed in European against its citizens

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"In making use of the Holocaust to defend indefensible policies, Netanyahu harms the very ethics of memory...", that Ahmadinejad himself is using to defile the Holocaust...

" but where history is used for the sake of political manipulation. "this is exactly what Ahmadinejad said.

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I thoroughly agree with this article. Remembering the Holocaust is a moral duty for Jews and non-Jews alike and this also applies to remembering the "nakba" suffered by the Palestinians also. The story of all human suffering is worthy of being told and respected. I believe that without truthful remembering we will never have peace.

There was no "occupation" there so if Carlo's memory is Ok he does consider the 67 victory an "indefensible thing"

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Strenger, you have been more reasonable lately, actually urging your fellow leftists to adapt to changing times. But to characterize Cast Lead as an indefensible operation is absurd and only leads to more isolation of the left. Besides, you wrote a piece in the Guardian defending the operation--or don't you remember that?

Bibi doesn't actually rule out concessions in the West Bank but explains the difficulties in the light of what happend in gaza. His speech was masterful. Shame on you!

Saddam Hussein saw himself as the reincarnation of Nubuchadneser who defeated the Jews in 586 BCE. Ahmadinejad may or may not see himself as the reincarnation of Hitler, whose 'racial scientists' declared the Iranians to be Aryans, but his comments on wiping Israel off the map have a strong Nazi feeling. If in every generation there is an Amalek, Ahmidinejad seems to be our Amalek. May the Iranian people soon throw him out!

An article like this is a consolation for me as a friend of Isreal, which in recent times, I think, unfortunately has lost support and sympathy for its policies.

Carlo Strengeroverlooks the fact that Israel, in recent years, has killed farmore civilians than any other nation or group on earth. This includes Americas excesses in Afghanistan anf Iraq over the past three years. Israel killed over 1000 Lebaese civilians in the 2006 war and over 500 civilians in the Gaza op. This is the mostimportant fact of mideastern current events. To ignore this fact, as Strenger, Israel, and America are doing means that they will never get it right. They will not be able to formulate an accurate analysis because their view is biased. Ahmadinejads "holocaust denial" is trivial and unimportant compared to Israels continuing justification of their slaughter of civilians.